Hackers,
So I want to repeat this because I think we are conflating several uses
for a bug tracker which aren't the same, and which really need to be
dealt with seperately.
-- Better CF App: to track feature submissions, discussion, revisions
and reviews.
-- Bug Submitter: easy-access way for
On 07/09/2012 12:02 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:
Hackers,
So I want to repeat this because I think we are conflating several uses
for a bug tracker which aren't the same, and which really need to be
dealt with seperately.
-- Better CF App: to track feature submissions, discussion, revisions
and
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Joshua D. Drake j...@commandprompt.com wrote:
On 07/09/2012 12:02 PM, Josh Berkus wrote:
Hackers,
So I want to repeat this because I think we are conflating several uses
for a bug tracker which aren't the same, and which really need to be
dealt with
-- Bug Submitter: easy-access way for users to submit bugs and check on
their status later.
Not sure how to handle the first two. Bug submission is always a pita and
although we could use the fix-bug-later app, it would clutter it as we were
trying to determine real bugs vs user error.
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote:
On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 03:41:41PM -0700, Daniel Farina wrote:
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote:
I think our big gap is in integrating these sections. There is no easy
way for a bug
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 11:36:41AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
I've never thought of it in terms of friction, but I think that term
makes a lot of sense. And it sums up pretty much one of the things
that I find the most annoying with the commitfest app - in the end it
boils down to the same
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Martijn van Oosterhout
klep...@svana.org wrote:
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 11:36:41AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
I've never thought of it in terms of friction, but I think that term
makes a lot of sense. And it sums up pretty much one of the things
that I find
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 11:36:41AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
I do basically agree with this. I was reflecting on the bug tracker
issue (or lack thereof) for unrelated reasons earlier today and I
think there are some very nice things to recommend the current
email-based system, which
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 12:59:02PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Martijn van Oosterhout
klep...@svana.org wrote:
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 11:36:41AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
I've never thought of it in terms of friction, but I think that term
makes a
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote:
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 12:59:02PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Martijn van Oosterhout
klep...@svana.org wrote:
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 11:36:41AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
I've never
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 04:45:42PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
That's not to say it's a horrible idea, it's just to say that things
are never as easy as they first look.
BTW, the *bigger* issue with this path is that now we suddenly have
different kinds of identifiers for different
On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote:
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 04:45:42PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
That's not to say it's a horrible idea, it's just to say that things
are never as easy as they first look.
BTW, the *bigger* issue with this path is that
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 10:29:26AM -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
IME, bug trackers typically work best when used by a tightly
integrated team.
Well, very many loosely distributed open-source projects use bug
trackers quite successfully.
So I think Greg has exactly the right idea: we
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote:
I think our big gap is in integrating these sections. There is no easy
way for a bug reporter to find out what happens to his report unless the
patch is applied in the same email thread as the report. It is hard for
users
On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 03:41:41PM -0700, Daniel Farina wrote:
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote:
I think our big gap is in integrating these sections. There is no easy
way for a bug reporter to find out what happens to his report unless the
patch is
I wonder if maybe the nearest step towards better bug tracker is a more
readily referenceable mail archive.
Clearly, one of our frictions is searching for relevant messages, so
improved mail archive == lowered friction, no?
There's a very particular use case; people keep rueing that indexes get
On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 08:44:13PM -0400, Christopher Browne wrote:
I wonder if maybe the nearest step towards better bug tracker is a more
readily referenceable mail archive.
Clearly, one of our frictions is searching for relevant messages, so
improved
mail archive == lowered friction,
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Daniel Farina dan...@heroku.com wrote:
I do basically agree with this. I was reflecting on the bug tracker
issue (or lack thereof) for unrelated reasons earlier today and I
think there are some very nice things to recommend the current
email-based system, which
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 05:08:06PM +0300, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
On tis, 2012-04-17 at 10:52 -0400, Jay Levitt wrote:
Maybe I'm confused - Magnus et al, are we talking spammy issues/issue
comments/etc, or are we talking more about exposed email addresses?
My github.com account currently
Am 18.04.2012 14:28, schrieb Robert Haas:
So I think Greg has exactly the right idea: we shouldn't try to
incorporate one of these systems that aims to manage workflow; we
should just design something really simple that tracks what happened
and lets people who wish to volunteer to do so help
Excerpts from Tom Lane's message of mié abr 18 03:12:09 -0300 2012:
Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net writes:
I think this cleraly outlines that we need to remember that there are
*two* different patterns that people are trying tosolve with the
bugtracker.
Yeah, remember we drifted
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160
So I think Greg has exactly the right idea: we shouldn't try to
incorporate one of these systems that aims to manage workflow; we
should just design something really simple that tracks what happened
and lets people who wish to volunteer
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160
My github.com account currently has 4264 notifications in the inbox.
Almost all of those are spam, growing constantly. �Because of that, the
platform is currently fairly useless to me for actually communicating or
collaborating on
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 16:45, Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com wrote:
My github.com account currently has 4264 notifications in the inbox.
Almost all of those are spam, growing constantly. �Because of that, the
platform is currently fairly useless to me for actually communicating or
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 10:49 AM, Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net wrote:
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 16:45, Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com wrote:
My github.com account currently has 4264 notifications in the inbox.
Almost all of those are spam, growing constantly. �Because of that,
On 04/19/2012 11:25 AM, Christopher Browne wrote:
The vast majority of the spam I have originates in the postgresql git
repository. You don't have any commits there...
But I would've assumed it should hit equally hard on other
repositories that's been around a long time.
I have plenty of
Andrew Dunstan and...@dunslane.net writes:
At any rate, I found that my spam went to nil by turning off
notifications for comments on my commits and comments that mention me.
The first part of that seems like it would destroy most of the point
of having the mechanism at all?
On 04/19/2012 03:05 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
Andrew Dunstanand...@dunslane.net writes:
At any rate, I found that my spam went to nil by turning off
notifications for comments on my commits and comments that mention me.
The first part of that seems like it would destroy most of the point
of
Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net writes:
I think this cleraly outlines that we need to remember that there are
*two* different patterns that people are trying tosolve with the
bugtracker.
Yeah, remember we drifted to this topic from discussion of management of
CF patches, which might be yet
alvhe...@commandprompt.com;
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net; Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us; Greg Smith
g...@2ndquadrant.com; Pg Hackers pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Gesendet: 3:07 Mittwoch, 18.April 2012
Betreff: Re: [HACKERS] Bug tracker tool we need
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Magnus
Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes:
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net wrote:
That's probably one reason people aren't jumping on this. Because
there is no tracker out there that people actually *like*...
I think this is a point worth serious thought.
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net wrote:
At the same time, I think we'd likely be a lot better off squirting this
data into bugzilla or another standard tracker, instead of building our
own infrastructure.
I'm somewhat doubtful.
Me, too.
It's very tempting
On tis, 2012-04-17 at 10:52 -0400, Jay Levitt wrote:
Maybe I'm confused - Magnus et al, are we talking spammy issues/issue
comments/etc, or are we talking more about exposed email addresses?
My github.com account currently has 4264 notifications in the inbox.
Almost all of those are spam,
On ons, 2012-04-18 at 08:28 -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
It's very tempting to assume that the problem we're trying to solve
must already have been well-solved by someone else, and therefore we
ought to use their thing instead of inventing our own. But that
presumes that our problem is exactly
On ons, 2012-04-18 at 13:33 +0300, Alex Shulgin wrote:
I wonder why do people keep complaining how their bug tracker of
choice sucks, instead of doing something about that.
Lack of time, and to some degree a lack of clarity of what they want out
of the thing. (Most people are very clear on
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote:
On ons, 2012-04-18 at 08:28 -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
It's very tempting to assume that the problem we're trying to solve
must already have been well-solved by someone else, and therefore we
ought to use their thing
Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote:
On ons, 2012-04-18 at 13:33 +0300, Alex Shulgin wrote:
I wonder why do people keep complaining how their bug tracker of
choice sucks, instead of doing something about that.
Lack of time, and to some degree a lack of clarity of what they
want out of
On 04/18/2012 11:29 AM, Kevin Grittner wrote:
Peter Eisentrautpete...@gmx.net wrote:
On ons, 2012-04-18 at 13:33 +0300, Alex Shulgin wrote:
I wonder why do people keep complaining how their bug tracker of
choice sucks, instead of doing something about that.
Lack of time, and to some degree
Robert, Peter, all:
IME, bug trackers typically work best when used by a tightly
integrated team.
Well, very many loosely distributed open-source projects use bug
trackers quite successfully.
... most of them, actually.
Um, isn't half of the commitfest app about workflow? Patch is
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:
3. Otherwise, they drift forever in the bleakness of space.
Seems to me that this line, is pretty close to being T-shirt-worthy.
wontfix. We don't need a system to help us ignore bug reports; our
existing process handles
On 04/17/2012 11:29 PM, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
On 04/17/2012 04:38 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
Jay Levittjay.lev...@gmail.com writes:
Greg Smith wrote:
Tracking when and how a bug is backported to older versions is one
hard part
of the problem here.
That's a great point. Both GitHub and git
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:
BTW, given our heavy reliance on email, let me put a word in here for
RT, which is 100% email-driven. RT has other limitations, but if your
goal is to never log into a web interface, it's hard to beat.
If your goal is to
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 08:12, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote:
Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net writes:
I think this cleraly outlines that we need to remember that there are
*two* different patterns that people are trying tosolve with the
bugtracker.
Yeah, remember we drifted to this
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 16:08, Peter Eisentraut pete...@gmx.net wrote:
On tis, 2012-04-17 at 10:52 -0400, Jay Levitt wrote:
Maybe I'm confused - Magnus et al, are we talking spammy issues/issue
comments/etc, or are we talking more about exposed email addresses?
My github.com account currently
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 19:17, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
ste...@kaltenbrunner.cc wrote:
On 04/17/2012 11:29 PM, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
On 04/17/2012 04:38 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
Jay Levittjay.lev...@gmail.com writes:
Greg Smith wrote:
Tracking when and how a bug is backported to older versions is
On 04/18/2012 01:26 PM, Robert Haas wrote:
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Josh Berkusj...@agliodbs.com wrote:
BTW, given our heavy reliance on email, let me put a word in here for
RT, which is 100% email-driven. RT has other limitations, but if your
goal is to never log into a web
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net wrote:
The problem I've found with most tools is that they work reasonably
well if you let them control the entire workflow. But when you want to
do things your own way, and it doesn't match up with what they were
originally
Magnus Hagander wrote:
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 23:48, Jay Levittjay.lev...@gmail.com wrote:
- Familiarity: Many developers already have a GitHub account and use it
Most of the more senior developers don't use github. Other than
possibly as a place to store a plain git repository. So that's
Jay Levitt jay.lev...@gmail.com writes:
(A quick Google shows redmine and especially Trac having spam issues
of their own.)
Ugh, redmine (or trac for that matters) has nothing to with handling
spam. I believe a typical bug tracker doesn't handle spam itself, it
lets the mailing system do
Alex Shulgin wrote:
Jay Levittjay.lev...@gmail.com writes:
(A quick Google shows redmine and especially Trac having spam issues
of their own.)
Ugh, redmine (or trac for that matters) has nothing to with handling
spam. I believe a typical bug tracker doesn't handle spam itself, it
lets the
On 04/17/2012 09:20 AM, Jay Levitt wrote:
Antispam is (in the large) a technically unsolvable
problem; even in the '90s, we'd see hackers start poking at our newest
countermeasures within the hour. GitHub is a giant target, and PG
probably benefits here from NOT being one.
Everyone who deals
Greg Smith wrote:
On 04/17/2012 09:20 AM, Jay Levitt wrote:
Antispam is (in the large) a technically unsolvable
problem; even in the '90s, we'd see hackers start poking at our newest
countermeasures within the hour. GitHub is a giant target, and PG
probably benefits here from NOT being one.
Jay Levitt jay.lev...@gmail.com writes:
Greg Smith wrote:
Tracking when and how a bug is backported to older versions is one hard part
of the problem here.
That's a great point. Both GitHub and git itself have no real concept of
releases, and can't tell you when a commit made it in.
We do
On 04/17/2012 04:38 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
Jay Levittjay.lev...@gmail.com writes:
Greg Smith wrote:
Tracking when and how a bug is backported to older versions is one hard part
of the problem here.
That's a great point. Both GitHub and git itself have no real concept of
releases, and can't
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Jay Levitt jay.lev...@gmail.com wrote:
That's a great point. Both GitHub and git itself have no real concept of
releases, and can't tell you when a commit made it in.
Those factors likely play together in this.
Git is a tool, not a workflow, and intentionally
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net wrote:
That's probably one reason people aren't jumping on this. Because
there is no tracker out there that people actually *like*...
I think this is a point worth serious thought. The bug trackers I've
used have been mostly
Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes:
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net wrote:
That's probably one reason people aren't jumping on this. Because
there is no tracker out there that people actually *like*...
I think this is a point worth serious thought.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160
But for any
given ABC there are also people who will tell you that it's got
significant problems. We don't need to change anything to get a
system that's got significant problems; we already have one.
Let's not let perfect be the enemy of
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:07 PM, Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com wrote:
Let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. In this case, *anything*
that actually tracks bugs (and they are all quite good at that,
if nothing else) is an improvement over what we have now, and thus,
quite good. :)
On 04/17/2012 10:30 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
Indeed. The only one I've got extensive experience with is Bugzilla
(because Red Hat uses it) and I do cordially hate it. At least some
of that is due to bureaucratic practices RH has evolved, like cloning
bugs N times for N affected releases, but I
Greg Smith g...@2ndquadrant.com writes:
Rather than talk about adopting one of the available torture devices,
I'd happily consider the simplest thing possible that would be useful
here instead. Here's my proposed tiny tracker:
Wasn't Jay just muttering about writing your own bug tracker
On 04/17/2012 11:44 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
At the same time, I think we'd likely be a lot better off squirting this
data into bugzilla or another standard tracker, instead of building our
own infrastructure.
Perhaps. It just struck me that a lot of the custom bits needed here
regardless could
On 18 April 2012 13:44, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote:
... I think you'll find a lot of that data could be mined out of our
historical commit logs already. I know I make a practice of mentioning
bug # whenever there is a relevant bug number, and I think other
committers do too. It
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 04:30, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote:
Robert Haas robertmh...@gmail.com writes:
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net wrote:
That's probably one reason people aren't jumping on this. Because
there is no tracker out there that people
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 19:59, Greg Smith g...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:
On 04/17/2012 09:20 AM, Jay Levitt wrote:
Let's pick a real example from the last week of my life, where having a bug
tracker would have helped me out. This appears in a log:
ERROR: missing chunk number 0 for toast value
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 05:44, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote:
Greg Smith g...@2ndquadrant.com writes:
Rather than talk about adopting one of the available torture devices,
I'd happily consider the simplest thing possible that would be useful
here instead. Here's my proposed tiny tracker:
Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net writes:
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 04:30, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote:
So when I read Andrew's recent suggestion that we use
Bugzilla, my immediate reaction was egad, can't we do better?.
Maybe we can't :-(.
Personally, I'd say we *already* do better
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 07:52, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote:
Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net writes:
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 04:30, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote:
So when I read Andrew's recent suggestion that we use
Bugzilla, my immediate reaction was egad, can't we do better?.
Dimitri Fontaine dimi...@2ndquadrant.fr writes:
Alvaro Herrera alvhe...@commandprompt.com writes:
I've used Redmine a lot, as you know, and I only keep using it because
it's a requirement at work. It is certainly not close to usable for
general pgsql stuff. (Trac, which we used to use
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 18:24, Alex a...@commandprompt.com wrote:
Dimitri Fontaine dimi...@2ndquadrant.fr writes:
Alvaro Herrera alvhe...@commandprompt.com writes:
I've used Redmine a lot, as you know, and I only keep using it because
it's a requirement at work. It is certainly not close to
Magnus Hagander mag...@hagander.net writes:
One thing to note is that the referenced wiki page is over a year old.
And that many more things have been said on email lists than are
actually in that page.
Yeah, I went through it briefly and rather important concern seem to
have been raised by
Alex wrote:
I still fail to see how Redmine doesn't fit into requirements summarized
at that wiki page[1], so that must be something other than formal
requirement of being free/open software and running postgres behind
(some sort of feeling maybe?)
Well, if those requirements are in fact
On 04/16/2012 09:24 AM, Alex wrote:
Jay, Alvaro, Dimitri (and whoever else wants to speak up) could you
please describe your ideal tool for the task?
Given that every other existing tool likely have pissed off someone
already, I guess our best bet is writing one from scratch.
Or maybe there
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 06:29:47PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
FWIW, I think the closest thing we've found so far would be debbugs -
which IIRC doesn't have any kind of reasonable database backend, which
would be a strange choice for a project like ours :) And makes many
things harder...
I believe the biggest hurdle for many hackers is that in redmine,
email is not a first class citizen. The majority of hackers are never
going to want to go into a web interface to get something done, they
live in VI/Emacs and the command line.
One thing that redmine definitely breaks is
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 23:48, Jay Levitt jay.lev...@gmail.com wrote:
Alex wrote:
I still fail to see how Redmine doesn't fit into requirements summarized
at that wiki page[1], so that must be something other than formal
requirement of being free/open software and running postgres behind
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