Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Anthony W. Youngman kirjutas K, 05.11.2003 kell 01:15: > >1) Your database might change over time and say a table that originally > >had only a few rows > >could suddenty grow considerably. Now an optimiser would insulate you > >from these changes > >or in the worst case all that would need to b

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Anthony W. Youngman wrote: >>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen >[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>>Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen [EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Anthony W. Youngman wrote: Well, if it is normalised, how easy

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen writes >Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > >>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >> >> >>>Anthony W. Youngman wrote: >>> >>> >>> Fine. But MV *doesn't* *need* much of a cache. Let's assume both SQL and >

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Marshall Spight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >"Bob Badour" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:W46dnf4tbfF1DwiiU- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> All physical structures will bias performance for some operations and >> against others. > >This strikes me as a succinct st

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>Really, however you calculate it, it is an order of magnitude less >>than your alternative. >> >>And please don't tell me that using indexes is not fair or not in the >>spirit of the >>relational model ;-) > >Well, it

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > > >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Anthony W. Youngman > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > But it does seem strange indexing on a composite field > >like that ... > > > But why does it seem

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Christopher Browne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > "Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Marshall Spight > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >>Unless one has data independence, one does not have > >>this option; one will be

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Really, however you calculate it, it is an order of magnitude less than your alternative. And please don't tell me that using indexes is not fair or not in the spirit of the relational mod

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > > >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen >[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > > >>Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > >>>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen > >>><[EMAIL PROTE

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Marshall Spight > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>Unless one has data independence, one does not have >>this option; one will be locked into a particular >>performance model. This is why I found the MV >>guy's obvious p

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Marsh Ray wrote: Lauri Pietarinen wrote: The theory, indeed, does not say anything about buffer pools, but by decoupling logic from implementation we leave the implementor (DBMS) to do as it feels fit to do. As DBMS technology advances, we get faster systems without having to change our prog

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 13:50, Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > Note I didn't say relational is *incorrect* - the ideas of > "mathematically correct" and "scientifically provable" are orthogonal, > and have nothing to say about each other. Eh? "Mathematical" and "Scientific" reasoning (more correctly:

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Dawn M. Wolthuis wrote: > So, nope, I'm not trolling. I've been doing some research the past > couple of years and I'm convinced that it is time to do something new > (and yet old) with data persistence. Perhaps. But before you go down that road, you have to answer the following simple, yet pos

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Lauri Pietarinen wrote: The theory, indeed, does not say anything about buffer pools, but by decoupling logic from implementation we leave the implementor (DBMS) to do as it feels fit to do. As DBMS technology advances, we get faster systems without having to change our programs. I think you'

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Darren King wrote: >>"Bob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> spewed forth... >> >>We achieved 8 times the performance with exactly the same >>hardware. What the hell is this idiot talking about us >>relying on hardware? He is a moron. You will do everyone >>a favour if you just bounce him off the bottom of you

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

> "Bob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> spewed forth... > > We achieved 8 times the performance with exactly the same > hardware. What the hell is this idiot talking about us > relying on hardware? He is a moron. You will do everyone > a favour if you just bounce him off the bottom of your > killfile. > ... >

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > > >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > > > > >>>Okay. Give me a FORMULA that returns a time in seconds for your query. > >>> > >>>Let's assume

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Okay. Give me a FORMULA that returns a time in seconds for your query. Let's assume I want to print a statement of how many invoices were sent to a customer, along with various details of tho

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>Okay. Give me a FORMULA that returns a time in seconds for your query. >> >>Let's assume I want to print a statement of how many invoices were sent >>to a customer, along with various details of those invoices. My invoice

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Bob Badour" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... [snip] > > Actually, Bob pointed out ... [snip] > Why don't you go and bang your heads together Bob. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, p

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > > >Well, as far as we MV'ers are concerned, performance IS a problem with > >the relational approach. The attitude (as far as I can tell) with > >relational is to hide the actual DB implem

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > >>Well, as far as we MV'ers are concerned, performance IS a problem with >>the relational approach. The attitude (as far as I can tell) with >>relational is to hide the actual DB implementation

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Bob Badour wrote: "Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Bob Badour wrote: "Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I could now denormalise OrderDetail so that it contains cust_id also and cluster by cust

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > > >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > > > > >>So in your opinion, is the problem > >> > >>1) SQL is so hard that the average programmer will

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Bob Badour wrote: "Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I could now denormalise OrderDetail so that it contains cust_id also and cluster by cust_id (might cause you trouble down the road, if you can change the customer of an order), in which case, with 3

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes So in your opinion, is the problem 1) SQL is so hard that the average programmer will not know how to use it efficiently Nope or 2) Relational (or SQL-) DBMS'es are just too slow

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Bob Badour wrote: > > >"Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message > >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >>I could now denormalise OrderDetail so that it contains cust_id also > >>and cluster by cust_id > >>(migh

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Paul Vernon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >No, I think Anthony is just saying that he doesn't "believe" in science/the >scientific method. Or maybe he believes that engineering is not based on >scientific knowledge! Actually, I *DO* believe in the Scientific Method. I

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Marshall Spight kirjutas N, 23.10.2003 kell 11:01: > "Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Just like the academics were > > brainwashed into thinking that microkernels were the be-all and end-all > > - until Linus showed them by practical example that

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > >> >>Fine. But MV *doesn't* *need* much of a cache. Let's assume both SQL and >>MV have the same amount of RAM to cache in - i.e. *not* *much*. I did >>say the spec said "extract maximum perfor

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Marshall Spight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > "Bob Badour" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > All physical structures will bias performance for some operations and > > against others. > > This strikes me as a succinct statement of t

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Anthony W. Youngman wrote: Fine. But MV *doesn't* *need* much of a cache. Let's assume both SQL and MV have the same amount of RAM to cache in - i.e. *not* *much*. I did say the spec sai

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Just like the academics were > brainwashed into thinking that microkernels were the be-all and end-all > - until Linus showed them by practical example that they were all idiots "The academics" (presumably you mean

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > As soon as a requirement for a database specifies extraction of the > maximum power from the box, I don't for a second believe that this is your only requirement, or that this is even an actual requirement. If it

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Lauri Pietarinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > > >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lauri Pietarinen > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > > > > >>Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Fine. But MV *doesn't* *need* much of a cache.

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Bob Badour" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > All physical structures will bias performance for some operations and > against others. This strikes me as a succinct statement of the value of data independence. One has the option (but not the requirement) to adjust the

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

> "Josh" == Josh Berkus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> "Relational" is all about theory and proving things >> mathematically correct. "MV" is all about engineering and >> getting the result. And if that means pinching all the best >> ideas we can find from relational, then we'r

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Wol, > I think one MAJOR problem is that most (if not all) MV practitioners are > not formally qualified in computing ... > "Relational" is all about theory and proving things mathematically > correct. "MV" is all about engineering and getting the result. And if > that means pinching all the bes

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Anthony W. Youngman kirjutas P, 19.10.2003 kell 21:24: > > As soon as a requirement for a database specifies extraction of the > maximum power from the box, it OUGHT to rule out all the current > relational databases. MV flattens it for it for performance. As an MV > programmer, I *KNOW* that I c

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

> -Original Message- > From: Lauri Pietarinen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 1:50 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL > > > Anthony W. Youngman wrote: > > >Well, as far as we MV&

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>> How do you know it works? Without the theory and model, you >>>really do not. >>> >> And don't other databases have both theory and model? >> >> It's just that all the academics have been brainwashed into thinkin

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Anthony W. Youngman wrote: Well, as far as we MV'ers are concerned, performance IS a problem with the relational approach. The attitude (as far as I can tell) with relational is to hide the actual DB implementation from the programmers. So it is a design "flaw" that it is extremely easy for a prog

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sailesh Krishnamurthy) writes: >> "Christopher" == Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Christopher> Ah, but do "papers" honestly indicate the emergence > Christopher> of some underlying theoretical model for which > Christopher> fidelity could be eval

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

> "Christopher" == Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Christopher> Ah, but do "papers" honestly indicate the emergence Christopher> of some underlying theoretical model for which Christopher> fidelity could be evaluated? Certainly. The model is that of semi-structured

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Sailesh, Warning: I get carried away in this response. I'm afraid that I'm a fond reader of Fabian Pascal and CJ Date, so I have far too much to say on the topic. So if you really care about XML databases, you should probably hold off on reading the rest until you're well-caffinated and in

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sailesh Krishnamurthy) transmitted: >> "Josh" == Josh Berkus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > This is an unfair characterization of XML databases, and I can say > this without accusations of bias for I vastly prefer working w

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

> "Josh" == Josh Berkus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: This is an unfair characterization of XML databases, and I can say this without accusations of bias for I vastly prefer working with the relational model. Josh> Actually, amusingly enough, there is a body of theory Josh> backing XML

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Anthony, > And don't other databases have both theory and model? Actually, no, the "new" databases do not. The relational model is backed by relational algebra and relational calculus, plus a series of postulates and laws which have been refined and tested over 20 years. Not Object-Orien

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

On Fri, 2003-10-17 at 22:52, Christopher Browne wrote: > Nobody seems to have been prepared to explain the MV model in adequate > theoretical terms as to allow the gentle readers to compare the theory > behind it with the other theories out there. I'm not convinced that there was a great deal of t

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Christopher Browne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Quoth "Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gene Wirchenko > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seun Osewa) wrote: > >> > >>[snip] > >> > >>>Sometimes I wonde

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Quoth "Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gene Wirchenko > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seun Osewa) wrote: >> >>[snip] >> >>>Sometimes I wonder why its so important to model data in the "rela- >>>tional way", to think of data in form of se

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gene Wirchenko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seun Osewa) wrote: > >[snip] > >>Sometimes I wonder why its so important to model data in the "rela- >>tional way", to think of data in form of sets of tuples rather than >>tables or lists or whatever. I

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seun Osewa) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > Hi, > > This is for relational database theory experts on one hand and > imlementers of real-world alications on the other hand. If there was > a chance to start again and design SQL afresh, for best > cleaness/power/pe

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seun Osewa) wrote: [snip] >Sometimes I wonder why its so important to model data in the "rela- >tional way", to think of data in form of sets of tuples rather than >tables or lists or whatever. I mean, though its elegant and based >on mathematical principles I would like to kn

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Bob Badour" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > "Mike Preece" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dawn M. Wolthuis) wrote in message > news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > > > Bob Badour" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

While I definitely agree that the mathematics of the data persistence mechanism is not as important to me as whether it works or not, as a former mathematician, I have done a little study related to the mathematics of non-relational approaches, such as PICK (the one both Wol and I have been know to

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Dawn M. Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Thank you, Seun, for asking your question with a bit of logic and not > gut-reaction emotional baggage (and for also asking a question of me > off-list so I could ramble). I'll try to make this more suscinct. With al

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Bob Badour" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > "Dawn M. Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Thank you, Seun, for asking your question with a bit of logic and not > > gut-reaction emotional baggage (and for also asking a questio

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Thank you, Seun, for asking your question with a bit of logic and not gut-reaction emotional baggage (and for also asking a question of me off-list so I could ramble). I'll try to make this more suscinct. First of all, I have read Codd's 1970 & 1974 ACM papers, as well as his "The Relational Mode

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dawn M. Wolthuis) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > Bob Badour" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > > "Dawn M. Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Thank you, Seun, for asking your question wit

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Mike Preece" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dawn M. Wolthuis) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > > Bob Badour" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > > > "Dawn M. Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in messag

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dawn M. Wolthuis) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > I would suggest ditching the entire relational model (as both overly > simplistic in its theory and overly complex in its implementation) and > start with English (that is one of the other names for the GIRLS > lang

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Good question. Although I would want to move away from relational databases too, if there is an RDBMS and one wants to query it, what would I aim for? If you look at XQuery, you will see an example of what I would definitely NOT aim for. Although the user of such a language might very well be a

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

With all due respect, Dawn, you are an idiot. "Dawn M. Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Good question. Although I would want to move away from relational > databases too, if there is an RDBMS and one wants to query it, what > would I aim for? If you look at

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seun Osewa) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > I have tried, twice, to download the evaluation version of the alphora > product for testing and it doesn't work. Guess there would be a lot > to learn from playing with it; the product is more than a RDBMS Aw, that's u

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

>> The mathematics of language is more complex than the mathematics of relations, particularly simple relations (such as 1NF tables). << Are you sure, you know what you are talking about? >> I would suggest ditching the entire relational model (as both overly simplistic in its theory and overly c

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ("Dann Corbit") wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > > -Original Message- > > From: Seun Osewa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:52 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [HACKERS] D

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dawn M. Wolthuis) wrote: > Good question. Although I would want to move away from relational > databases too, if there is an RDBMS and one wants to query it, what > would I aim for? If you look at XQuery, you will see an example of >

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

I have tried, twice, to download the evaluation version of the alphora product for testing and it doesn't work. Guess there would be a lot to learn from playing with it; the product is more than a RDBMS Regards, Seun Osewa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Lauri Pietarinen) wrote: > That is, in fact, the appro

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

> -Original Message- > From: Seun Osewa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 11:52 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL > > > Hi, > > This is for relational database theory experts on one h

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Thanks for the links. Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > There are two notable 'projects' out there: > > 1. There's Darwen and Date's "Tutorial D" language, defined as part > of their "Third Manifesto" about relational databases. > > 2.

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

"Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lee Fesperman > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >If you don't care for mathematical principles, there's always ad-hoc database > >models. > >Check out Pick, OO and XML databases.

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Lee Fesperman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >If you don't care for mathematical principles, there's always ad-hoc database >models. >Check out Pick, OO and XML databases. They're interested in what works and >ignore >elegance and mathematical principles. Mathematic

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Seun Osewa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Thanks for the links. > >Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED] >125932.news.uni-berlin.de>... >> There are two notable 'projects' out there: >> >> 1. There's Darwen and Date's "Tutori

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

On 3 Oct 2003 21:39:03 GMT, Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >There are two notable 'projects' out there: > > 1. There's Darwen and Date's "Tutorial D" language, defined as part > of their "Third Manifesto" about relational databases. > > 2. newSQL

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Seun Osewa wrote: > > Sometimes I wonder why its so important to model data in the "rela- > tional way", to think of data in form of sets of tuples rather than > tables or lists or whatever. I mean, though its elegant and based > on mathematical principles I would like to know why its the _right_

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Christopher Browne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... > I think an implementor would be better off using an SQL database > underneath, and using their code layer in between to accomplish the > "divorce" from the aspects of SQL that they disapprove of. That is, in f

[HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Hi, This is for relational database theory experts on one hand and imlementers of real-world alications on the other hand. If there was a chance to start again and design SQL afresh, for best cleaness/power/performance what changes would you make? What would _your_ query language (and the underl

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

The world rejoiced as [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike Mascari) wrote: > It's a very provocative read. At a minimum, one can learn what to > avoid with SQL. The language looks neat on paper. Perhaps one day > someone will provide an open source implementation. One could envision > a "D" project along the sa

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Mike Mascari kirjutas L, 04.10.2003 kell 06:32: > > 2) The query language should be computationally complete. The user > should be able to author complete applications in the language, rather > than the language being a sublanguage. To me it seems like requiring that one should be able to author

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

Christopher Browne wrote: > After takin a swig o' Arrakan spice grog, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seun Osewa) belched > out...: > >>This is for relational database theory experts on one hand and >>imlementers of real-world alications on the other hand. If there was >>a chance to start again and design S

Re: [HACKERS] Dreaming About Redesigning SQL

After takin a swig o' Arrakan spice grog, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seun Osewa) belched out...: > This is for relational database theory experts on one hand and > imlementers of real-world alications on the other hand. If there was > a chance to start again and design SQL afresh, for best > cleaness/pow