Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 10:50 AM Jacco van Dorp wrote: > > Op ma 17 sep. 2018 om 16:40 schreef Wes Turner : >> >> I think it's meant to be ironic? >> >> Why would that be the first sentence of a poem about software and the Python >> newsgroup/mailing list community? >> >> A certain percentage of

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

> It’s been almost a week since this “discussion” first started. Can we please > stop this in the name of productive work on python-ideas? A better use of time might be to discuss moving to a better forum system where moderation is easier/possible. Email somehow has a shape that makes those t

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

It’s been almost a week since this “discussion” first started. Can we please stop this in the name of productive work on python-ideas? Frankly, you don’t need to reply just because you can point out something wrong with someone else’s argument. Post because it’s worthwhile to hear, not because y

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Zen of The Python Mailing List >>> import that on topic is better than off topic the dish of toxicity is made up of opinion attacking irony is it's fine herbs top posting should be counselled homeworks are not to be done mail clients are the tastes and colours of life a mailing list serves it's p

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Op ma 17 sep. 2018 om 16:40 schreef Wes Turner : > I think it's meant to be ironic? > > Why would that be the first sentence of a poem about software and the > Python newsgroup/mailing list community? > > A certain percentage of people might be offended by changing the first > line (the frame of)

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

I think it's meant to be ironic? Why would that be the first sentence of a poem about software and the Python newsgroup/mailing list community? A certain percentage of people might be offended by changing the first line (the frame of) of said poem; to "I'm better than you". Dominance and arrogan

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Janhangeer Cc: python-ideas Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause Hi everyone, on behalf of the moderators… please, let’s stop discussing who accused whom of what, and either stick to the discussion at hand or be silent. If you ca

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Hi everyone, on behalf of the moderators… please, let’s stop discussing who accused whom of what, and either stick to the discussion at hand or be silent. If you can’t make a point without aggression or name calling, then it’s not a point you should be making. (That’s a general statement about

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

if (out.of.subject).pingpong: time to let the thread go Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofcondu

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:17 AM Jacco van Dorp wrote: > > Op zo 16 sep. 2018 om 05:40 schreef Franklin? Lee > : >> >> Jacco: >> - This is completely disrespectful and way over the line. Don't try to >> make a psychological evaluation from two emails, especially when it's >> just someone having an

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 at 09:40, Franklin? Lee wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 2:04 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 13:32:26 -0400 > > "Franklin? Lee" > > wrote: > > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 4:14 AM Antoine Pitrou > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Yeah, right. > > > > > > > >

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 2:04 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 13:32:26 -0400 > "Franklin? Lee" > wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 4:14 AM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > > > Yeah, right. > > > > > > You know, when I was pointing out Calvin not being very brave by > > > attacking

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

@SamanthaQuan Beautiful is a degree above the good. Beautiful in the context applied defines the refined, with a nuance of excellence. As the definition of beauty is not standard, it is what appeals to an individual. It is not only about passing the functional quality test, it is about perfection.

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Op zo 16 sep. 2018 om 05:40 schreef Franklin? Lee < leewangzhong+pyt...@gmail.com>: > I am very disappointed with the responses to this thread. We have > mockery, dismissiveness, and even insinuations about OP's > psychological health. Whether or not OP is a troll, and whether or not > OP's idea h

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 13:32:26 -0400 "Franklin? Lee" wrote: > On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 4:14 AM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > Yeah, right. > > > > You know, when I was pointing out Calvin not being very brave by > > attacking a bunch of people without giving names, my aim was to merely > > point out

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 4:14 AM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Yeah, right. > > You know, when I was pointing out Calvin not being very brave by > attacking a bunch of people without giving names, my aim was to merely > point out how dishonest and disrespectful his attitude his. *Not* to > encourage s

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Sunday, September 16, 2018, Wes Turner wrote: > > It may be most relevant to interpret the poem as it is: culled from > various writings of the community. > > What do we need to remember? Our criticism can hurt fragile feelings and > egos; which we need to check at the door. > Dear Python com

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Saturday, September 15, 2018, Franklin? Lee < leewangzhong+pyt...@gmail.com> wrote: > I am very disappointed with the responses to this thread. We have > mockery, dismissiveness, and even insinuations about OP's > psychological health. Whether or not OP is a troll, and whether or not > OP's ide

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Fri, 2018-09-14 at 22:09 +0200, Davide Rizzo wrote: > At one Python conference in Italy, participants were given an > elegantly designed and well-crafted t-shirt with a writing in large > characters that read "Beautiful is better than ugly" in reference to > the Zen of Python. Back home, a close

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On 16/09/2018 10:45, David Mertz wrote: > You have missed the use of *reductio ad absurdum* in my comment and > several others. This argument structure is one of the fundamental forms > of good logical reasoning, and shows nothing dismissive or insulting. > The specifics book titles I used we

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 4:34 AM Stephen J. Turnbull < turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote: > I would also disagree with Greg Ewing's take on "robot". It may have > meant "slave" in the original Czech, but in English it has strong > connotations of "automaton" and an inherent lack of autonomy

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

You have missed the use of *reductio ad absurdum* in my comment and several others. This argument structure is one of the fundamental forms of good logical reasoning, and shows nothing dismissive or insulting. The specifics book titles I used were carefully chosen, and you'd do well to think about

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Chris Barker via Python-ideas writes: > We now have anecdotal evidence that "beautiful is better than ugly" > can be offensive out of context. Other than that, we have people > "suspecting" or "imagining" that some people "may" find it > offensive in context. "Sam" at yandex.ru did not even d

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Yeah, right. You know, when I was pointing out Calvin not being very brave by attacking a bunch of people without giving names, my aim was to merely point out how dishonest and disrespectful his attitude his. *Not* to encourage someone to turn his post into more of a clusterfuck of personal att

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

I am very disappointed with the responses to this thread. We have mockery, dismissiveness, and even insinuations about OP's psychological health. Whether or not OP is a troll, and whether or not OP's idea has merit, that kind of response is unnecessary and unhelpful. (While I lean toward OP being

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Chris Barker via Python-ideas wrote: "efficient is better than inefficient" kind of goes without saying... Perhaps we should just replace the entire Zen with "Good is better than bad." Insert your own subjective ideas on what constitutes "good" and "bad" and you're set to go. :-) -- Greg _

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 7:38 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > To be fair, in my > > experience this has been a source of confusion to many Python > > newcomers, as the notion of "beauty", as with any other value > > judgment, is highly relative to the subject evaluating it. Indeed is *is* subjective

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 22:09:06 +0200 Davide Rizzo wrote: > > In this case, I even see the potential to convey the original message > in a more powerful way than the current formulation does. I'm not a > good candidate for this, as the chosen language for this community is > English, which is not my

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 6:09 AM, Davide Rizzo wrote: > One way out of the impasse is to draw upon the feeling behind the > adjective. We call "beautiful" something that appeals to us, makes us > comfortable, or inspires us awe. Ugly is something that makes us > uncomfortable, repels us, disconcert

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Regardless of whether the original posting is a trolling attempt or not, the argument does have value that I want to corroborate with an anecdote. At one Python conference in Italy, participants were given an elegantly designed and well-crafted t-shirt with a writing in large characters that read

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

I don't think additional replies on this thread are really constructive. If you aren't contributing any new thoughts on the original message consider not replying at all. On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 12:24 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > > > On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 13:10 Koos Zevenhoven wrote: > >> >> If yo

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 13:10 Koos Zevenhoven wrote: > > If you can't tell inclusivity/diversity from political correctness, or > dirty words from dirty bytes or from unfriendliness and intolerance, you'd > better go fuck yourself. > That language and tone is entirely uncalled for and you have be

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Guido van Rossum wrote: Facts to consider: (a) the OP's address is ...@yandex.com , a well-known Russian website (similar to Google); (b) there's a Canadian actress named Samantha Quan. Now I'm waiting for the Kremlin to deny rumours that the Canadian actress Samantha Quan i

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 12:47:39AM -0700, Zaur Shibzukhov wrote: > I completely agree with the fact that this discussion should be stopped The discussion should be stopped before those 3 pull requests. Now they should be reverted. Or more discussion will be sparked and more PRs created. Ole

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:47:07 +1200 Greg Ewing wrote: > M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > > For > > me, it refers to a general feeling of consistency, pureness and > > standing out on its own. It's abstract and doesn't have > > anything to do with humans. > > Yep. And the proposed replacement "clean/dirty

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Tim Delaney wrote: And I can't think of an elegant replacement for "ugly" to pair with "elegant". There's "inelegant", but it doesn't have the same punch as "ugly". And I think Tim deliberately chose a very punchy word for that line, to reflect that we care a *lot* about aesthetics in Python.

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

пятница, 14 сентября 2018 г., 1:56:58 UTC+3 пользователь Guido van Rossum написал: > > Everyone who still wants to reply to this thread: please decide for > yourself whether the OP, "Samantha Quan" who started it could be a Russian > troll. Facts to consider: (a) the OP's address is ...@yandex

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

My mom is the only one who ever called me any shade of beautiful. I think we all know what that means. However, if merely the word ugly being on a page can be "harmful", what you really need is professional help, not a change to Python. Because there's obviously been some things in your past you n

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Discussions like this are always difficult and charged, but I think there's a good opportunity for growth here. I love being involved with the Python community for, among many other reasons, I think Python is quite inclusive, especially as a technical community. However, I know that people often f

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Tim Peters wrote: > I presume "Zen" came to their mind because it's brief, and a critical > reading reveals a number of seeming ambiguities and contradictions, yet it > nevertheless _appears_ to say _something_ ;-) "Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas - on

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

[Tim] > > > I already made clear that I'm opposed to changing it. > [Terry Reedy ] > To me, this settles the issues. As author, you own the copyright on > your work. The CLA allows revision of contributions, but I don't think > that contributed poetry should be treated the same as code and docs

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On 9/13/2018 7:34 PM, Tim Peters wrote: I already made clear that I'm opposed to changing it.\ To me, this settles the issues. As author, you own the copyright on your work. The CLA allows revision of contributions, but I don't think that contributed poetry should be treated the same as co

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

> "Ugly" is very obviously a slur. It carries a dark meaning *and* it's still > being actively used towards people. Honestly, I can't imagine someone > cheering up when they see that word, especially if they're self-conscious > about their appearance or were told they were "ugly" at some point

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

[Tim Delaney ] > "Elegant" is the *only* word I think it would be appropriate to replace > "beautiful" with. > And I can't think of an elegant replacement for "ugly" to pair with > "elegant". "Awkward" would probably be the best I can think of, and > "Elegant is better than awkward" just feels k

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Calvin Spealman wrote: I ask everyone on this thread being rude to please step back and try to look at the issue without your bias and knee-jerk reactions. I've given it some thought, and this is what I think: As has been pointed out, context is important. The reason that shunning people for n

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Everyone who still wants to reply to this thread: please decide for yourself whether the OP, "Samantha Quan" who started it could be a Russian troll. Facts to consider: (a) the OP's address is ...@yandex.com, a well-known Russian website (similar to Google); (b) there's a Canadian actress named Sam

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 08:48, Greg Ewing wrote: > M.-A. Lemburg wrote: > > For > > me, it refers to a general feeling of consistency, pureness and > > standing out on its own. It's abstract and doesn't have > > anything to do with humans. > > Yep. And the proposed replacement "clean/dirty" doesn'

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

M.-A. Lemburg wrote: For me, it refers to a general feeling of consistency, pureness and standing out on its own. It's abstract and doesn't have anything to do with humans. Yep. And the proposed replacement "clean/dirty" doesn't even mean the same thing. It's entirely possible for a thing to be

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Jacco van Dorp wrote: You can have master and slave devices - for example, if I have a PC that tells a robot what to do, my PC is the master and the robot the slave. If we're going to object to "slave", we should object to "robot" as well, since it's derived from a Czech word meaning "forced w

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 09:06:53PM +0100, Samantha Quan wrote: >It's my understanding that master/slave terminology is now deprecated, >because these words carry dark meanings, too, and further alienate folks >who feel uncomfortable being reminded of them everywhere. That's the idea >

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Body shaming is bad. Don't call people "ugly," regardless of how they look. Code shaming, on the other hand, can be productive. Nothing wrong with calling ugly code ugly. ...RM On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 1:38 AM Samantha Quan wrote: You can't argue that the word "ugly" is harmless, now that so

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Of course, the argument wasn't that we should treat "good" and "bad" code equally (speaking of common tactics -- "straw man"). The point was that the words you use can make a huge difference. "Ugly" is very obviously a slur. It carries a dark meaning *and* it's still being actively used towards peo

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 8:33 PM Jonathan Fine wrote: > > > To be beautiful means to be yourself. You don't need > to be accepted by others. You need to accept yourself. > > I wonder if this is related to the beauty in "The Zen of Python". > > Different people may need different advice. P

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Mark E. Haase wrote: > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:49 AM Rhodri James wrote: > >> More importantly, this whole idea of banning and/or changing terminology >> is psychologically and sociologically wrong-headed. The moment you say "You >> may not use that word" you

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:57 AM, Mikhail V wrote: > And I don't know what can be really 'beautiful' > in _any_ code. > Ugly - yes, it's often can be said about the code which is full of > redundant punctuation, bad formatting, etc. > But this sound strange: "this code is beautiful". Do people re

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:39 AM Samantha Quan wrote: > > One alternative to that clause I could think of is "Clean is better than > dirty", > but please do speak up if you have better ideas. "Clean is better than hairy!" :-D > I ask you to give this change serious consideration, On a seri

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Possibly off topic - but it is about beauty. Anders wrote > I just happen to be a Zen Buddhist! And you’re right. The worst reaction you > are likely to get is an eye roll. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Naht_Hahn is a Zen Buddhist. He has said To be beautiful means to be yourself. Yo

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

FWIW a big flag to me was putting an Urban Dictionary link under "references"... On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 12:21 PM Anders Hovmöller wrote: > > > If I were to change anything, I'd drop the reference to "Zen". That > wasn't part of the original, and was added by someone else. If, e.g., a > Zen Budd

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

> If I were to change anything, I'd drop the reference to "Zen". That wasn't > part of the original, and was added by someone else. If, e.g., a Zen > Buddhist objected that this use trivializes their beliefs, I'd have real > sympathy with _that_. But I'd be greatly surprised if a Zen Buddhis

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

The line in question is from Tim Peters' "The Zen of Python" Beautiful is better than . where at present is "ugly". My opinion, based on my present experience and knowledge, is that it is reasonable to consider asking Tim to change . Also, I suggest that in the context of Python and its Zen

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 17:15, Mark E. Haase wrote: > Let's assume her proposal was made in good faith. Certainly. I'm opposed to any proposal to change long-established and common usage wording on the basis that it has the *potential* to cause offense. If anyone is *actually* offended by the word

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:49 AM Rhodri James wrote: More importantly, this whole idea of banning and/or changing terminology is > psychologically and sociologically wrong-headed. The moment you say "You > may not use that word" you create a taboo, and give the word a power that > it did not hav

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

[Jonathan Fine ] > The first line from "import this" is > > The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters > > I suggest we put this discussion on hold, until Tim Peters (copied) > has had a chance to respond. > > Don't look at me - I was merely channeling Guido ;-) That said, "beautiful v. ugly" in th

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On 13/09/18 14:16, Calvin Spealman wrote: Samantha, I came into this thread reading the subject and thinking "over my dead body!" until I read your well-thought reasoning and gave even a little bit of thought to the idea. You're absolutely right and while I think its very unlikely to get enough

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 09:16:17 -0400 Calvin Spealman wrote: > > I came into this thread reading the subject and thinking "over my dead > body!" until I read your well-thought reasoning and gave even a little bit > of thought to the idea. > > You're absolutely right and while I think its very unlik

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Samantha, I came into this thread reading the subject and thinking "over my dead body!" until I read your well-thought reasoning and gave even a little bit of thought to the idea. You're absolutely right and while I think its very unlikely to get enough support I do think it is a very good sugges

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

That's why I focused on pairs. I understand why some people might feel offended by the term slave (and master in opposition to it), despite personally feeling the concepts are detached. I never saw anyone oppose using the terms master/copy. Trying to tie something as abstract and general as ugly/be

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

I just want to add my -1 to the list of others who have already expressed similar opinions. Please keep the meaning of language associated with the respective context. Language is always open to interpretation. It doesn't imply that one particular interpretation is more right or more wrong, nor do

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Op do 13 sep. 2018 om 14:22 schreef Chris Angelico : > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:16 PM, João Santos wrote: > > One important difference between master/slave and beautiful/ugly is that > the > > first pair are concrete concepts that typically applies to people, and > the > > second are abstract c

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:16 PM, João Santos wrote: > One important difference between master/slave and beautiful/ugly is that the > first pair are concrete concepts that typically applies to people, and the > second are abstract concepts that always applied also to objects and > abstract concept

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

One important difference between master/slave and beautiful/ugly is that the first pair are concrete concepts that typically applies to people, and the second are abstract concepts that always applied also to objects and abstract concepts. On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 13:16, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 12:32:43 +0200 Oleg Broytman wrote: > On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:22:14PM +0200, Jacco van Dorp > wrote: > > I'm pleasantly surprised by the general response here. I was taking it > > seriously because, well, that's how far it's going everywhere. > > 1. I couldn't believe i

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

The first line from "import this" is The Zen of Python, by Tim Peters I suggest we put this discussion on hold, until Tim Peters (copied) has had a chance to respond. -- Jonathan ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://ma

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:22:14PM +0200, Jacco van Dorp wrote: > I'm pleasantly surprised by the general response here. I was taking it > seriously because, well, that's how far it's going everywhere. 1. I couldn't believe it could be serious. 2. I was sure it was trolling on the trail of h

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

> I'm pleasantly surprised by the general response here. I was taking it > seriously because, well, that's how far it's going everywhere. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of C

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Some books we should burn include: Title Beautiful Evidence Author Edward R. Tufte Edition illustrated Publisher Graphics Press, 2006 ISBN 1930824165, 9781930824164 Length 213 pages Title Be

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Hi Samantha, You ask others to be open-minded, but fail to show such an attitude yourself. Beauty is a very old and important concept in the history of human societies, present in most or all of them, and has been the subject of a wide range of interpretations, studies and theories. And, as a F

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

Op do 13 sep. 2018 12:03 schreef Antoine Pitrou : > On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:55:40 +0200 > "Giampaolo Rodola'" > wrote: > > > > This is simply ridiculous. I'm not sure if this is political > > correctness pushed to its limits or just trolling. > > Indeed she might be trolling. Though the fact we'r

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:55:40 +0200 "Giampaolo Rodola'" wrote: > > This is simply ridiculous. I'm not sure if this is political > correctness pushed to its limits or just trolling. Indeed she might be trolling. Though the fact we're hesitating on the diagnosis shows how far reality has come on t

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:05:53AM +0200, Jacco van Dorp wrote: > -1. The concept of ugly code is everywhere on the internet. Everyone on > this planet has either written ugly code or no code at all. Some have also > written beautiful code. > > People aren't code, and code isn't people. I can't

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:38 AM Samantha Quan wrote: > > First, I'd like to express how grateful I am to see more and more technical > communities embrace diversity and inclusivity, particularly big tech > communities like Python, Redis, and Django. > > In the spirit of the big recent terminolo

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 09:36:42AM +0100, Samantha Quan wrote: >First, I'd like to express how grateful I am to see more and more >technical communities embrace diversity and inclusivity, particularly big >tech communities like Python, Redis, and Django. >In the spirit of the big

Re: [Python-ideas] Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause

-1. The concept of ugly code is everywhere on the internet. Everyone on this planet has either written ugly code or no code at all. Some have also written beautiful code. People aren't code, and code isn't people. I can't see this becoming a problem until we have an AI that can feel insulted becau