Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 14, 2005, at 9:21 PM, Bill Janssen wrote: If I'm going to be developing closed stuff, I might as well target a larger market than current and future Python developers :) Well, that's good. My projects are typically a mix of Python, Java, and Jython, often with a bit of C, C++, HTML, CSS and

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

> If I'm going to be developing closed stuff, I might as well > target a larger market than current and future Python developers :) Well, that's good. My projects are typically a mix of Python, Java, and Jython, often with a bit of C, C++, HTML, CSS and Javascript, all mixed together. An IDE th

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 14, 2005, at 19:47, Chris Barker wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: I'm definitely interested in these things (more some than others), but I'm currently professionally committed to some other stuff. The real problem I'd have with this sort of business venture is doing it in a way that's compati

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

I don't want to beat this dead horse any farther into the ground, but: I'm working on a small but not toy app, one or two thousand lines in eight modules. To build and debug a module with "if __name__ == '__main__'", I can use TextWrangler's Run, or Run-with-debug if I want to get down into pdb

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 14, 2005, at 18:29, has wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: Personally, I hope that developers See The Light and do interface building in a separate but integrated application like Xcode and Interface Builder. Exactly. Or separate, integrateable components that plug into a common base framework. Wel

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Bob Ippolito wrote: I'm definitely interested in these things (more some than others), but I'm currently professionally committed to some other stuff. The real problem I'd have with this sort of business venture is doing it in a way that's compatible with open source, but still making enough m

[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Macu User Python Newbiew

" cmd [ " moves a block of selected text one tab level back (4 spaces if you've set "auto-expand tabs"). and " cmd ] " moves a block of text one level forward. Is this what you're looking for? TextWrangler is no IDE, but as a code editor it's very good. -Brendan On 14-Feb-05, at 2:03 PM, [EM

[Pythonmac-SIG] New wiki entry

I just added a new wiki entry, "Describe Apple's Framework implementation of Python and how that affects me adding new Python implementations". Please review it. If it does not answer your questions about Apple's Framework installation, please send those questions to this list or me personally an

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Bob Ippolito wrote: Maybe because in many cases, the users are the developers and adding those 20%s together makes for some big ugly mess. I'm not sure that qualifies as an excuse; more making their bed and lying in it. :) Well the people writing these things obviously write it such that it suits

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Pythonmac-SIG Digest, Vol 22, Issue 46

Andrew Meit wrote: > -- YES, I once, when much younger, did Type (known for my Gutenberg > font work) and graphic design; I must be getting old, too: I thought I knew everyone who did type AND Python... Welcome to the club. Just ___ Pythonmac-SIG mai

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

I don't know if this answers the question, but I've been using wxSTCs in my apps (there's no other way to display or edit text over 32k), and they seem to work just fine. One app uses an STC to load, for example, a 4.5 meg text file and do some searches on it. It's all very quick and painless.

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Troy Rollins wrote: I think that what the new user really want, more than "free", is something which provides a "raodmap to being productive." I've lost track, have you tried any of the proprietary tools? (Wing, etc.). I know I haven't. but the whole project? It is just too big, with too many lin

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Bob Ippolito wrote: Dumb question: What's wrong with wxScintilla? Doesn't SPE use it as well? What's Boa using? It's currently really slow on Mac OS X, as mentioned before. I don't like environments where I can type faster than the redraw. No idea about Boa. Boa uses wxScintilla (AKA wxSTC) al

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 14, 2005, at 4:32 PM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Speaking of DrPython, I have an example of having it packaged in the py2app svn trunk.. but as it uses wxScintilla, it isn't really very fun to play with. Dumb question: What's wrong with wxScintilla? Doesn't SPE use it as well? What's Boa using

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Pythonmac-SIG Digest, Vol 22, Issue 46

On Feb 14, 2005, at 4:11 PM, Andrew Meit wrote: On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:04 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And it seems that very often programmers never do get around to that 'rebuild and replace' stage, because as soon as they've reached working code it's considered 'done', and to then throw that co

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

> Speaking of DrPython, I have an example of having it packaged in the > py2app svn trunk.. but as it uses wxScintilla, it isn't really very fun > to play with. Dumb question: What's wrong with wxScintilla? Doesn't SPE use it as well? What's Boa using? Best regards, Wolfgang Keller __

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

> > I know that there are open-source versions of all of these: SciPy, Dabo, > Pythoncard, Zope, etc., but they don't have the polish that you'd need > to attract the type of newbies that are at the core of this thread. > True enough. There have been no shortage of excellent thoughts and suggesti

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

> To some extent, while Guido could endorse something (which is more or > less the case with IDLE), there is no way to name something the > "official one", and even if there were, there's nothing to stop folks > from going out on their own anyway. Sure, but... > Thus is the nature of open-sour

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:27 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Wolfgang Keller wrote: If for each given problem one implementation was chosen as "the official one" To some extent, while Guido could endorse something (which is more or less the case with IDLE), there is no way to name something the "official on

[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Pythonmac-SIG Digest, Vol 22, Issue 46

On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:04 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And it seems that very often programmers never do get around to that 'rebuild and replace' stage, because as soon as they've reached working code it's considered 'done', and to then throw that code away and start all over again is anathema. C

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: I tried SPE, PythonCard, PyOxice, PyPE, eclipse and wing (under x11). Supposed to run on MacOS X: Eric3, Boa Constructor, DrPython (?), Leo (not exactly a conventional IDE) Speaking of DrPython, I have an example of having it packaged in the py2

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: On Feb 14, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Except that AnyGui was never a good idea. A wrapper around a wrapper around a wrapper around a . just too much! While I agree with the assertion that a large part needs to be

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Wolfgang Keller wrote: If for each given problem one implementation was chosen as "the official one" To some extent, while Guido could endorse something (which is more or less the case with IDLE), there is no way to name something the "official one", and even if there were, there's nothing to st

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

> I tried SPE, PythonCard, PyOxice, PyPE, eclipse and > wing (under x11). Supposed to run on MacOS X: Eric3, Boa Constructor, DrPython (?), Leo (not exactly a conventional IDE) Maybe someday as well: BlackAdder It doesn't seem to me that there are no IDEs available for Python on MacOS X (or an

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

Bob Ippolito wrote: On Feb 14, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Except that AnyGui was never a good idea. A wrapper around a wrapper around a wrapper around a . just too much! While I agree with the assertion that a large part needs to be written in a lower level language, I don't agre

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 14, 2005, at 2:29 PM, has wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: > MS builds software that way cos they like to get their users locked into > a perpetual upgrade cycle from which they can make money, but what's > OSS's excuse? Maybe because in many cases, the users are the developers and adding th

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac Python User Newbies

Hi Chris, I promised myself I'd stay out of this discussion, but I think you hit on a good point and wanted to expand on it. On Feb 14, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Chris Barker wrote: [snip] Same for GUI toolkit, Whatever toolkit this fabulous IDE uses, there are going to be a lot of us that want a diffe

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

On Feb 14, 2005, at 2:05 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: 4. AnyGui seemed like a really good idea to me. Lots of good ideas never get the attention and effort they deserve. Except that AnyGui was never a good idea. A wrapper around a wrapper around a wrapper around a . just too mu

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Bob Ippolito wrote: > MS builds software that way cos they like to get their users locked into > a perpetual upgrade cycle from which they can make money, but what's > OSS's excuse? Maybe because in many cases, the users are the developers and adding those 20%s together makes for some big ugly m

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

Bob Ippolito wrote: 4. AnyGui seemed like a really good idea to me. Lots of good ideas never get the attention and effort they deserve. Except that AnyGui was never a good idea. A wrapper around a wrapper around a wrapper around a . just too much! As far as I can tell, there are two good i

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac Python User Newbies

thor wrote: Well, that is a good point. I suppose everyone will have a differing opinion on that, particularly in terms of goals. For me, I'd like to see a single package, which includes a GUI designer, script editor with colorizing, debugger, interactive console, some sort of module browser for fu

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Louis Pecora wrote: > P.S. I have not yet had time to try out Chris Barker's packaging of > matplotlib. I hope to do that later this month, but BIG KUDOS to him > for trying to make the code available to more people. Gee thanks! As it turns out, Robert Kern is working on MacEnthon, which will sup

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

On Feb 14, 2005, at 1:46 PM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: 3a Command R can wait for the third tier because I have a trick: I run a script "onchange.py python somefile.py" which runs somefile.py whenever I save the file. But a newbie wouldn't know how to create this script. Stakeout? For reference: ht

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

> 3a Command R can wait for the third tier because I have a trick: I > run a script "onchange.py python somefile.py" which runs somefile.py > whenever I save the file. But a newbie wouldn't know how to create > this script. Stakeout? Best regards Wolfgang Keller _

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 14, 2005, at 1:02 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Roger Binns wrote: My wxPython code is hand coded. I haven't found any of the design tools to be much good for non-trivial projects. For example try doing something like the wxPython demo with one of them. They also don't work well if you have cus

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Roger Binns wrote: My wxPython code is hand coded. I haven't found any of the design tools to be much good for non-trivial projects. For example try doing something like the wxPython demo with one of them. They also don't work well if you have custom widgets, which is a lot of my UI. This brings

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: another point..porting...

On Feb 14, 2005, at 12:49 PM, Andrew Meit wrote: On Feb 14, 2005, at 12:37 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I can just see Troy sitting at his computer reading the above and saying, "I rest my case." :-) -- and for me too... :-( Here is another bone to chew on: porting stuff to Python...I don't

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Robert Kern wrote: It's called "Enthon." There will be a new release (for Windows and Linux) with more stuff, like matplotlib, Soon(TM). http://www.enthought.com/downloads/downloads.htm There will be a Mac release A Little Later Than Soon(TM). http://www.scipy.org/wikis/featurerequests/MacEnthon

[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: another point..porting...

On Feb 14, 2005, at 12:37 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I can just see Troy sitting at his computer reading the above and saying, "I rest my case." :-) -- and for me too... :-( Here is another bone to chew on: porting stuff to Python...I don't find anything to help make the transition of a

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Bob Ippolito wrote: Well, either the current state if Python tools is good enough or it isn't. Perhaps the threat of a new user not sticking with Python is suitable motivation for some developers, but obviously not all of them, because then Python would do everything for everyone already :) Py

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Brendan Simons wrote: TextWrangler, however, has good Python support, including cmd-r to run the present script. They've even written a parser for traceback, so when I get a runtime error, TW drops me right where I made the mistake. Handy. But does it do Python indenting correctly? This is

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Michael Hudson wrote: Well, I think this is a subjective judgement -- a matter of familiarity. I "play" with Python all the time. A good start is to enhance your interactive experience somewhat. Three options spring to mind: 1) Get readline support working. If you're still using Apple's Pyth

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 14, 2005, at 12:09 PM, has wrote: Charles Hartman wrote: So an environment (in the vernacular, not the Unix sense) is what the beginner needs -- an IDE from within which everything you need to do can be done, and not dangerously much else. But if the IDE is complete enough for this beginn

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Troy Rollins wrote: Well, I've transitioned between tools like Director, REALbasic, and Revolution, and extremely quickly moved into creating non-trivial applications. With Python, it is far less condusive to "playing" and therefore seems to hold me somewhere around the print "hello world" stage. Y

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Charles Hartman wrote: So an environment (in the vernacular, not the Unix sense) is what the beginner needs -- an IDE from within which everything you need to do can be done, and not dangerously much else. But if the IDE is complete enough for this beginner to work in, isn't it likely to be a r

[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac Newbie IDE help...

On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:01 AM, Hartman wrote: So an environment (in the vernacular, not the Unix sense) is what the beginner needs -- an IDE from within which everything you need to do can be done, and not dangerously much else. But if the IDE is complete enough for this beginner to work in, isn't

[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: MacPython 2.3.5 for 10.2 Release Candidate available

Folks, a MacPython 2.3.5 release for MacOSX 10.2 (also works on 10.3) is available for testing. Please download it from and send feedback (preferably to the mailing list) telling me whether it works. I'm quite convinced this is going to be the

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Newbies need IDEs (was Mac User Python Newbie)

Sorry, I actually meant I tried to bundle the PythonCard Editor, in its tools directory. Your instructions are still helpful though, and I might give it another shot - Brendan On 14-Feb-05, at 1:19 AM, Bob Ippolito wrote: The problem with bundling PythonCard with py2app is that it makes no se