[RBW] Re: Bent rear derailler?

2015-05-25 Thread Will
This is an opportunity to purchase an Altus from the Riv folk. #1 son has one on his commuter. Works great. On Sunday, May 24, 2015 at 4:48:17 PM UTC-5, WETH wrote: I am in need of a second opinion. Is the rear derailler on my Atlantis bent? It's a Shimano deore from Riv-well used by me.

[RBW] Re: Bent rear derailler?

2015-05-25 Thread WETH
Will, Indeed! I use the Altus on my Rivendell Road and it works great. Should the derailer need replacing, I will likely replace it with the Altus. Thanks,Erl -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group

[RBW] Re: Single Speed Conversion Help

2015-05-25 Thread George Schick
I agree with most of the replies here about stripping down the bike, but I'd be a bit leery about leaving the cassette/freewheel in place and just using the middle cog for SS use. I did exactly that for some friend's son a few years ago with an old Schwinn Collegiate. Cassette/freewheel cogs

Re: [RBW] Re: 03 Curt Goodrich Riv custom out for life-altering surgery.

2015-05-25 Thread Patrick Moore
No, going cheap and standing behind my often repeated assertion that the heart of Rivendellianism is the fit, handling, and feel of the bike. And this is the bike that gets used for grocery runs and ridden in the rain, so durability uber alles. FWIW, and granted that the paint job in question was

[RBW] Re: Single Speed Conversion Help

2015-05-25 Thread Will
You can spend half a day reducing to single speed or about 10 minutes fortifying what's there. I bought a set of pit-locks for the wheels and seat, and an Abus U-lock last month for my Atlantis. It is now very secure. There's no theft incentive if a prospective buyer cannot remove the wheels

Re: [RBW] WTB: Rear 650b Wheel.

2015-05-25 Thread Eric Daume
Hello again David, I just happen to have a 650B set, wheels, tires and brakes, guaranteed to fit on an '83 Trek 620! http://bikingtoplay.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-for-sale-post.html Eric On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 3:32 PM, David Banzer daban...@gmail.com wrote: Looking for something not too

[RBW] Re: Weather Report

2015-05-25 Thread Surlyprof
We don't have as much concern about this in California (unfortunately) but when I feel a slight threat, these are light, small enough to carry, and have you covered with wide tires: http://www.sks-germany.com/?l=ena=productr=mudguardsi=529330MUD-X

[RBW] Re: Hammock suggestions for S24O type outings.

2015-05-25 Thread Surlyprof
Anyone have any experience with the Eno's? Are they comfortable or a waste of money? I saw they were pretty cheap during the REI sale. Thoughts? John On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 6:15:11 AM UTC-7, jinxed wrote: I'm going nuts waiting for Colorado to dry out, and it's still raining.

[RBW] Re: 03 Curt Goodrich Riv custom out for life-altering surgery.

2015-05-25 Thread Will
If it was mine, I'd add canti-posts. Then you can run those dreamy Tektro 720 cantis. On Sunday, May 24, 2015 at 4:56:32 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: Chauncey Matthews came by this morning to pick it up. A month or so. Turnkey operation, I hope: disassembled, brazed, powdercoated,

[RBW] PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread cyclotourist
Looks like someone is doing some spring cleaning: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rivendell-Legolas-Cyclocross-Frame-Fork-/361304471976 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rivendell-Ramboillet-Frame-Fork-/361305024287 And they're in the most popular 58-59 size range! -- Cheers, David Member, Supreme Council of

[RBW] Re: Help Riv: Let people ride your bike

2015-05-25 Thread Surlyprof
PS: I am one of those foolish people who thought he could turn a Cross Check into a Riv. For the $2K+ I spent trying, I could have spent a few bucks more and had many more years of enjoying my Hillborne. Live and learn! John On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 8:51:13 PM UTC-7, hangtownmatt

[RBW] Re: WTB: 26.2mm seatpost

2015-05-25 Thread Richard L.
Try Wallingford Bikes? http://www.wallbike.com/kalloy/parts/straight-top-alloy-seatpost-0 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

[RBW] Re: 1988 or 1989 Bridgestone Trail MB-4 rehab questions

2015-05-25 Thread Richard L.
You've found a nice looking bike. You might like the MAP handlebars. http://www.ahearnecycles.com/shop/ahearnemap-handlebar?category=Handlebars Enjoy the bike. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group

[RBW] Re: What is your preferred position for Paul Thumbies on Alba's?

2015-05-25 Thread Richard L.
Thanks Ron. Your set up looks great. Richard -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to

[RBW] Re: Black and Tan

2015-05-25 Thread Surlyprof
I will now! John On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 8:58:15 PM UTC-7, Don Compton wrote: How many of you Rivendellians hve ridden to Fenton's in Oakland and ordered a Black and Tan or a Banana Special? And maybe a toasted crab sandwich? -- You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: [RBW] Re: FS: Size 61 Canti-Romulus, built in 2006. $850

2015-05-25 Thread gordo
Andsold! On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 7:52:50 AM UTC-7, Ray Shine wrote: I thought I had removed this. I'm sorry. This bike was sold. -- *From:* Don Funke bozemanch...@gmail.com javascript: *To:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Sent:* Wednesday,

[RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Daniel Jackson
Hey Deacon, What model Burt are you running? Snakeskin, Raceguard, none of the above? Any idea about differences in puncture resistance between the Snakeskin and Raceguard forms? Thanks, D. On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 4:31:26 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote: I couldn't resist sharing this

[RBW] Re: 1988 or 1989 Bridgestone Trail MB-4 rehab questions

2015-05-25 Thread Jeffrey
I have an '84 MB-5 and have tried various stems and bars on it. I have had a dirt-drop and Technomic stems, with Noodles, Albatross, Bullmoose and Moustache bars. What I like best is close to a Velo Orange Tourist bar, but a little more swept back. I have short legs and am 5'7 and found I

[RBW] Re: Help Riv: Let people ride your bike

2015-05-25 Thread Surlyprof
If I stop somewhere I don't trust, I loosen the seatpost screw and take the seat, seatpost and saddlebag assembly in with me. The back of a Brooks doesn't make a bad handle. I even have an old Thomson seatpost bag I can slide over the post to protect from grease. I figure the whole assembly

[RBW] Re: Hammock suggestions for S24O type outings.

2015-05-25 Thread Coconutbill
I am a fan of the Warbonnet Traveler, single layer. I went for most cost effective, and light. I was living in Socal, and figured it would be unlikely Id get rained on. I'd probably invest in a hammock with integrated rain shelter and stuff now, but its super light and very comfortable. --

Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Hugh Smitham
Mike, Mark his buddy Graham were rolling with the snakeskin's. But yeah they're race tires not originally designed for loaded touring. I'm bummed to hear how they didn't hold up, still gonna ride with em, even though Mark's experience...at least for now. ~Hugh On May 25, 2015 1:25 PM, Mike

[RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Deacon Patrick
I'm running Snakeskin but wish I'd gotten the plain, most supple. Next time, and then I'll know. My understanding is: Snakeskin = sidewall protection and best for tubeless; Raceguard = puncture protection. With abandon, Patrick On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 9:30:43 AM UTC-6, Daniel Jackson wrote:

Re: [RBW] Re: Hammock suggestions for S24O type outings.

2015-05-25 Thread Edwin W
There is some good information in hammocks out there from a few enthusiasts with videos on how to lie diagonal and stay flat, etc.. My findings: Great for a solo tour. Light, easy to set up and comfy. Cooler. Sleep on top of your pad to stay a bit warmer, but I was cold in the 30's when I

[RBW] Re: How old is your Hillborne? Really

2015-05-25 Thread Deacon Patrick
Yes, with my Hunqapillar at a bike shop. I don't go there any more. Sardonic grin. With abandon, Patrick -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Mike Schiller
The TB's are considered a race tire by Schwalbe. I would only use the Snakeskin version for extended off-road touring. They are wonderful tires. I've been using Panaracer Comets recently, less supple but more durable and roll pretty good on pavement. ~mike Carlsbad Ca -- You received

[RBW] Re: PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread Mike Schiller
that orange Legolas is beautiful... and my size! If only it fit bigger tires in the back. ~mike Carlsbad Ca -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email

[RBW] How old is your Hillborne? Really

2015-05-25 Thread Thomas Lynn Skean
Yes, though more with polite surprise than actual disbelief (i. e. rudeness). For me I'm pretty sure the double top tube is what compels the question. I'm sure the lugs help. Yours, Thomas Lynn Skean 2x 60cm DTT Waterford Hillbornes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to

[RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Deacon Patrick
Bummer the problems were that significant, Mark. So far so good for me, but we don't have much in the way of flint, more micro-edge sharp roundish decomposed granite, or exposed decomposed granite boulders on trails. I suspect a lot depends on the type of road. Perhaps weight matters a great

Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Hugh Smitham
Mark Reimers buddy on the OOB slashed a TB. Still waiting to hear which version he was running. The weight savings was so nominal I chose puncture resistance. ~Hugh “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

Re: [RBW] Re: Hammock suggestions for S24O type outings.

2015-05-25 Thread Robert F. Harrison
This all got me thinking about hammocks. I already own and use a Hennessey which is great for hammock with integrated bug netting, etc. It's a little on the heavy side but I've used it many times. In any case, I got to thinking about a lighter, quick setup hammock just for keeping with me and

[RBW] Re: Single Speed Conversion Help

2015-05-25 Thread Chris in Redding, Ca.
Hey Matt, Maybe a best option is making it a five speed with some cheap bars and a cheap thumby. Yank the extra CRs and the FD. This allows the use of a chainguard too - which can be nice in some cases. I have built a bunch of bikes like this for my extended family members who were heading off

[RBW] Lots of reconfiguration, resulting in three handlebar tape jobs this weekend.

2015-05-25 Thread Bill
Those Bosco bars would sizzle with a total harlequin wrap. Looks great (APPROVE) as done though. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

[RBW] How old is your Hillborne? Really

2015-05-25 Thread Marc Irwin
That is a reoccurring question I hear when out among bike enthusiasts. Nobody cares about the production date or from which batch it may have come. People are always asking me how old it is. They never ask that about the Hunqapillar, just the Hillborne. Some are surprised when I tell

Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread Mark Reimer
Just finished a 7 day gravel tour, including the Oregon outback. Tires are shredded. My buddy graham had two rear blowouts and a dime sized piece of tire in the middle tear out. I have some big slashes halfway through the tread and the knobs are showing signs of tearing. These tires roll so

Re: [RBW] How old is your Hillborne? Really

2015-05-25 Thread James Warren
Of all my Rivs, the blue Hillborne gets the most comments. I quite often get compliments about its looks. I have many times gotten the comment, hey that's an old one! But I've never had someone try to tell me that it really is an old model. And questions about why the extra frame tube are

[RBW] Re: Lots of reconfiguration, resulting in three handlebar tape jobs this weekend.

2015-05-25 Thread Montclair BobbyB
+1 on the khaki ... On Sunday, May 24, 2015 at 6:56:12 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote: I did a new build, another Rawland. This time it's a Nordavinden, their 700c road bike offering. I had centerpull posts installed and built it up as a modernish Jan Heine special. Here's THE BUILD

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread cyclotourist
It's close enough to my size to make me think about it! I wonder if it would fit MSOs or Nano40s... if so, it would be a great replacement for my Riv Road and set up as I use mostly. I could keep a light road wheelset for the times when I want to do pure road, rather than an entire bike for that

[RBW] Re: stupid stem question

2015-05-25 Thread David Banzer
I've always meant it be minimum insertion into steerer tube, on threaded headsets that's just slightly below the top headset nut. David Chicago On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 7:18:08 PM UTC-5, drew wrote: Regarding minimum insertion line. does the minimum insertion line mean 'this far below the

Re: [RBW] Re: Help Riv: Let people ride your bike

2015-05-25 Thread Eric Daume
How is the Riv better or different from the CC? Eric On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Surlyprof jmcclu...@gmail.com wrote: PS: I am one of those foolish people who thought he could turn a Cross Check into a Riv. For the $2K+ I spent trying, I could have spent a few bucks more and had

[RBW] Re: Rivelo is opening!

2015-05-25 Thread Manuel Acosta
Store looks amazing! On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 6:09:39 PM UTC-7, Beth H wrote: I came, I saw, I enjoyed: http://bikelovejones1.blogspot.com/2015/05/theres-new-kid-in-town-rivelo.html Slow opening for now, official opening June 20. Fun, cute, lovely. Go and see. Beth -- Beth Hamon

[RBW] Rivelo is opening!

2015-05-25 Thread Beth H
I came, I saw, I enjoyed: http://bikelovejones1.blogspot.com/2015/05/theres-new-kid-in-town-rivelo.html Slow opening for now, official opening June 20. Fun, cute, lovely. Go and see. Beth -- Beth Hamon Jewish educator, songleader cantorial soloist http://www.beth-hamon-music.com -- You

[RBW] Re: PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread hsmitham
Yeah the Legolas is gorgeous, looks like a fresh coat of paint and all the way from Walnut Creek! ~Hugh -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

[RBW] Re: FS: SaddleSack, Large, Olive

2015-05-25 Thread Deacon Patrick
Selfishly bumping this to catch the folks logging in at the end of the long weekend! With abandon, Patrick On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 12:10:07 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote: For sale is a large Olive Saddle Sack. $200 w/ shipping CONUS via PayPal to this email. Condition is well loved

[RBW] Re: Single Speed Conversion Help

2015-05-25 Thread drew
in total agreement about a single speed being more desirable. especially in that setting. most people in college will want a single speed or be singlespeedifying their own geared bike. you'd be doing the work for them. pitlocks, a good locking technique...heck, two mini u-locks. put a bad

[RBW] Re: Hammock suggestions for S24O type outings.

2015-05-25 Thread 'jinxed' via RBW Owners Bunch
Well, I stumbled upon a decent deal on a new Kammok Roo and it's on the way. I will pick up some of the optional (python?) straps soon and give it a cursory go. I wish I had trees that would hold it in my yard, but they're all too spindly. We did have our first appreciable sun for the first

Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread David Yu Greenblatt
In the MTB world Schwalbe is known for making fast (low rolling resistance) but relatively fragile tires. Here in SoCal many mountain bikers who enjoy bombing down gnarly downhills eschew them because of their relatively low longevity, even with Snakeskin or Super Gravity enhanced

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread Mike Schiller
I think 38 in the back is max. Bigger than your Riv Road so it's a bump up! ~mike On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 3:40:50 PM UTC-7, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote: It's close enough to my size to make me think about it! I wonder if it would fit MSOs or Nano40s... if so, it would be a great

[RBW] Re: Single Speed Conversion Help

2015-05-25 Thread Will
Another option is to use security bolts. This link will have everything you'd use to secure parts to the frame: stem, racks, brakes, seat post, seat on post, derailers, etc... http://bicyclebolts.com/collections/security-allen-bolts/ I guess I am reacting to de-constructing a well thought

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread cyclotourist
So tempting... 38mm is just about perfect! On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Jim M. mather...@gmail.com wrote: I run Schwalbe Marathon Cross on my Legolas when I want knobs. They measure at just over 38 inflated and there is only a little clearance left. You might be able to get a 40 in, but it

[RBW] Re: How old is your Hillborne? Really

2015-05-25 Thread 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch
I get this a lot also. I'd say it's a 50/50 mix of people thinking it's old and people who know what it is but have never seen one in person. There's no doubt it's an attention getter, I think it's mostly due to the double top tube. On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 11:49:44 AM UTC-7, Marc Irwin

Re: [RBW] Re: Thunder Burt Wisdom...

2015-05-25 Thread cyclotourist
Yeah, wonder what the carried weight amount was. Bummer that they didn't hold up as hoped for... On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Hugh Smitham hughsmit...@gmail.com wrote: Mike, Mark his buddy Graham were rolling with the snakeskin's. But yeah they're race tires not originally designed for

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread cyclotourist
MSO are 38, so a maybe...! On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Mike Schiller mikeybi...@rocketmail.com wrote: I think 38 in the back is max. Bigger than your Riv Road so it's a bump up! ~mike On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 3:40:50 PM UTC-7, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote: It's close enough to my size

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread Jim M.
I run Schwalbe Marathon Cross on my Legolas when I want knobs. They measure at just over 38 inflated and there is only a little clearance left. You might be able to get a 40 in, but it would be snug. BTW, the seller is an occasional poster here and a riding companion. Good guy and good bikes.

[RBW] Bullmoose bars and width, who cut theirs?

2015-05-25 Thread Keith Muller
How tall are you? I would slide you grips and controls in a half inch at a time. Try it out and if you like it, get the hacksaw/pipe cutter out and trim it down. Repeat till you find your happy spot! I have the Bullmoose bars on my Hunqapillar and love them. My are full width, but I'm also

[RBW] Re: Bullmoose bars and width, who cut theirs?

2015-05-25 Thread Deacon Patrick
Have you tried Albastache bars? The curve position is narrower and the upright position wider. I ride 80% of the time in the curves, 100% of the single track in the curves. They are road bars, so require a stem/brake/possibly shifter change in diameter. I love mine, though the bullmoose were

Re: [RBW] How old is your Hillborne? Really

2015-05-25 Thread Andrew Marchant-Shapiro
A few years ago, I took my VO Rando to a ride, and someone said hey, that's a nice old bike..unless it's a nice NEW bike. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

[RBW] stupid stem question

2015-05-25 Thread drew
Regarding minimum insertion line. does the minimum insertion line mean 'this far below the headset or below the locknuts or if you cant see the line, you're good? ive got about 5cm in below the headset, and another 5cm taken up by locknut/cable hanger/spacer too little? father's day present

[RBW] Bullmoose bars and width, who cut theirs?

2015-05-25 Thread DS
I found myself on the trail today wondering about a slightly more narrow bar for my 48cm Hunqapillar. No real reason other than I found myself scooting my hands inward, I'm more used to drop bars on a road bike. Curious to who on here has cut theirs and to what width? Does anyone wish they

Re: [RBW] How old is your Hillborne? Really

2015-05-25 Thread Deacon Patrick
No, Andrew. That can't be. They don't make people that smart and humble any more. Grin. With abandon, Patrick (ducking so as to avoid the slap bound to find it way through the interwebs). On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 5:43:05 PM UTC-6, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro wrote: A few years ago, I took my

Re: [RBW] Re: Bullmoose bars and width, who cut theirs?

2015-05-25 Thread David Stein
Yes, I actually had albatross on these for a while and loved them. However I ended up stealing them for a hillborne build and wanted to try out the bullmoose so bought those and put em on. I like the bullmoose bars so far. Just curious if bars can be 'too wide' and if they should be dialed down a

[RBW] Re: PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread dougP
David: And it's even in the fastest color. I think it's got your name written on it. dougP On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 8:21:05 AM UTC-7, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote: Looks like someone is doing some spring cleaning:

[RBW] Re: Rivelo is opening!

2015-05-25 Thread dougP
Looks very well done. I with John best of luck in this endeavor. Portland needs a map showing bike shops, builders, painters, etc. Something along the lines of the vineyard / winery maps you see for Napa, SLO, Santa Ynez. dougP On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 6:09:39 PM UTC-7, Beth H wrote: I

[RBW] Re: Single Speed Conversion Help

2015-05-25 Thread Joe Bernard
There's a particular kind of fun to be had in piecing together a good budget bike from your parts stash. Often it's pieces you originally tossed for an upgrade, and now suddenly they look pretty darn useful in a different context. I don't know why, but sometimes it's more fun/creative than the

[RBW] Re: Single Speed Conversion Help

2015-05-25 Thread 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch
Well, I still had all the old the parts so I basically restored it back to its original SunTour_DiaComp configuration. A few things like the handlebars, double crank, pedals, and seat aren't original, but I had replacement items on hand and they were not of any great value. I used these

[RBW] Re: Lots of reconfiguration, resulting in three handlebar tape jobs this weekend.

2015-05-25 Thread Bill Lindsay
Harlequin would be the business. On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 10:45:07 AM UTC-7, Bill wrote: Those Bosco bars would sizzle with a total harlequin wrap. Looks great (APPROVE) as done though. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Riv Frames on ebay

2015-05-25 Thread cyclotourist
I like threadless, but with a tall steerer, so check and check! A bit small though, so who knows... On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 7:36 PM, dougP dougpn...@cox.net wrote: David: And it's even in the fastest color. I think it's got your name written on it. dougP On Monday, May 25, 2015 at

Re: [RBW] Re: Help Riv: Let people ride your bike

2015-05-25 Thread Surlyprof
I had the Cross Check for about 4 years. I bought it as a complete when I was in a hurry for a replacement after a crash. Cheap build. If you buy one, build it up from a frameset. I replaced almost everything on it. When I was done it had a Brooks saddle and tape, mustache bars, fat

[RBW] Re: Single Speed Conversion Help

2015-05-25 Thread Benz, Sunnyvale, CA
On Monday, May 25, 2015 at 3:46:42 PM UTC-7, Will wrote: Another option is to use security bolts. This link will have everything you'd use to secure parts to the frame: stem, racks, brakes, seat post, seat on post, derailers, etc...