[RBW] Re: WTB: 1" quill to 1-1/8" stem adapter

2016-05-22 Thread saintruggler
Thanks for the intel. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw

[RBW] Re: FS: Carradice, Nigel Smythe, Minnehaha bags; Nitto Campee front rack w/ detachable lowriders

2016-05-22 Thread Benz, Sunnyvale, CA
Sent email about the NS loafer... On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 4:47:11 PM UTC-7, Julian wrote: > > Rack and Minnehaha are sold. Carradice and Nigel Smythe still available. > > Thanks, > > Julian Westerhout > Bloomington, Il > > On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 10:04:35 AM UTC-5, Julian wrote: >> >> Fo

Re: [RBW] Always heard this about latex tubes

2016-05-22 Thread René Sterental
Installed the latex tubes on the 35mm Bon Jon Pass tires on my Homer and went for a 42 mile ride today to continue building my aerobic base. All I can say is WOW!!! The combination of the Compass tires and the latex tubes made the bike roll so incredibly smoother. Areas on the route where I would

[RBW] Re: hard cases for shipping

2016-05-22 Thread dougP
Bob: The case I have is a Performance Bicycle house brand that I've had for at least 10 years. I'm sure there are better ones now but it has been fine. A bit heavy at 30ish pounds but generally dimensional weight controls the cost. I stenciled the dimensions on it to minimize discussion with sh

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
I like your Public D8. They make pretty bikes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to thi

Re: [RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Steve Palincsar
That says to me racers have no business being out on the public roads. On 05/22/2016 08:10 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote: I'm sorry about your experience. I wish we lived in a world where basic civility could reliably produce a like response. In general I am willing to deal with the negatives wit

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread David Person
Enjoy the ride. On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 4:01:23 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote: > > Yep, I'm ordering one tonight. Not a fan of the wheel floppage! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop rece

[RBW] Re: hard cases for shipping

2016-05-22 Thread Bob Ehrenbeck
Doug, Which hard-shell case did you use, if you don't mind me asking? Bo, Thanks for mentioning the AirCaddy -- it looks like a sturdy and well-thought-out system, and it doesn't require much disassembly -- but given your mention of bad experiences with FedEx, I'm wondering if a hard case wo

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch
As someone who has done some of the very first "Muffin Rides" from NYC to Nyack and the Runcible Spoon, way before they put in all that bicycle parking, before STI, before carbon, I will say that the pack that went past you was more than likely not being malicious at all. None of them has an in

Re: [RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Jay L
All, Thanks.this is a really good lesson for me, and good advice from the group. I guess I got stuck on...if a car..oh welltypical...though honestly atypical. (I commute with shirt and tie most days, so I think cars give me extra space.) I was surprised that it was cyclists, and moreover

[RBW] WTB: Nitto Soba (177-LT) 46cm

2016-05-22 Thread Jeremy Tavan
I know I could easily just get a 46cm Noodle for a cockpit re-do of my go-fast road bike, but I figured (because I never do things the easy way) I might first see if anyone has a nice wide Soba model on hand that they're not using. Anyone? Thanks, /Jeremy -- You received this message because

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Michael Hechmer
I'm sorry about your experience. I wish we lived in a world where basic civility could reliably produce a like response. In general I am willing to deal with the negatives without giving up my choice to be civil but >From my long past racing brain. It's not a lane, it's a line. In racing

[RBW] Re: FS: Carradice, Nigel Smythe, Minnehaha bags; Nitto Campee front rack w/ detachable lowriders

2016-05-22 Thread Julian
Rack and Minnehaha are sold. Carradice and Nigel Smythe still available. Thanks, Julian Westerhout Bloomington, Il On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 10:04:35 AM UTC-5, Julian wrote: > > For sale are three bags and a Nitto Campee rack. Details below, photos > here https://flic.kr/s/aHskADwFKN > >

[RBW] Botom Brackets, again and again and again

2016-05-22 Thread Michael Hechmer
I didn't follow the "Tell me about Bottom Brackets" thread because I didn't think I knew a lot about them nor had any strong opinions. I rarely seem to have any trouble with any of the BBs I have owned. But in the last couple of weeks I have spent two afternoons playing with bottom brackets

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
Yep, I'm ordering one tonight. Not a fan of the wheel floppage! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread David Person
But I still love my Sam Hillborne. On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 3:05:31 PM UTC-7, David Person wrote: > > I did the same with my Public D8i and my wife's Linus M8i. Now we stay > together and actually ride more. > >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "R

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread David Person
Joe, might I suggest one of these, especially with the double kickstand: http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/vo-wheel-stabilizer.html Makes a big difference in keeping that front wheel from flopping over when parked. David On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 11:19:23 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote: >

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Jon in central Colorado
Jay, If those guys were in a pace line maybe a double pace line... Half those guys are just concentrating to hang on to the pack, the other half are watching the rear wheel that is 6" from their front wheel. I'm sure they didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. Jon > >> -- You received this m

[RBW] Re: How do you know what the VAT/duty is going to be if you buy from EU/Japan?

2016-05-22 Thread Ron Mc
It could be a combination of many things - shipping costs, import duties, keeping prices down to offset VAT, currency exchange rate. Obviously a Japanese vendor buying wholesale components made at home eliminates import duties and currency exchange, and minimizes his shipping costs. I think

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
A couple other Riv comments: 1. The Choco-Moose is a fabulous bar. It feels like the grip position and angle were custom fit for me..amazing. 2. That mustard Appaloosa is gorgeous. There's a 51 Ready To Ride at RBW right now, and I'd dearly love to find the cash for it. It would not get an elect

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
Personally, I think mixing an e-bike into a group ride - fast or recreational - kinda defeats the purpose of the group's ride. I wouldn't do it, but them again I don't do group rides so this isn't an issue I need to sort out. I electrified one of my bikes because I think it's fun. It's not going

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread ted
for one who writes "... I know none. Absolutely none." Garth just writes a lot. On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 12:32:59 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote: > > > While you can take it as personal as you wish Jay it isn't > personal :) > >Everyone is "just riding" in their own way . All are "just

Re: [RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Steve Palincsar
On 05/22/2016 03:32 PM, Garth wrote: While you can take it as personal as you wish Jay it isn't personal :) Everyone is "just riding" in their own way . All are "just being" themselves in their own way. I ask myself ... "With what absolute foundation(if a foundation ain't

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Steve Palincsar
On 05/22/2016 03:19 PM, Joe Bernard wrote: Understood..I'm not trying to convince you that e-bikes are a thing you should like. Mine is set up with a 0-5 pedal-assist, and I would use 0 for the riding situation you described. I like this motor on this frame in the conditions I ride in, but t

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
Ah, I think I saw that back thing, Patrick. The 500 is not an easy car to rack if you have the sunroof or convertible, so there was a lot of bodging going on at first. I have the cabrio, which I never even *tried* to figure out. If I need to transport, I pull the wheels off a regular bike and st

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Garth
While you can take it as personal as you wish Jay it isn't personal :) Everyone is "just riding" in their own way . All are "just being" themselves in their own way. I ask myself ... "With what absolute foundation(if a foundation ain't absolute it ain't no foundation at all)

Re: [RBW] Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Jay L
Thanks everyone. Yes, I will start to ride in the lane, particularly when there are no cars around. At the very least, this action would have made the pack give me some space. It is strange that I have had a near miss with a truck and one with a car. Neither seemed to stir up emotions as much as t

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Patrick Moore
IIRC, I came across this man very shortly after the neo retro F 500 came into the US market, so he may have been too far on the front of the wave. On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Joe Bernard wrote: > Wow, Patrick, that's quite a bodge. Someone should tell that guy he can > buy bike racks actual

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Patrick Moore
Joe: FWIW, I think your electrification is truly Rivendellian. If the motor serves a real purpose, and you can use a Rivendell to accomplish that purpose, then you have hit a true sweet spot. On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Joe Bernard wrote: > Understood..I'm not trying to convince you that e-

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
Wow, Patrick, that's quite a bodge. Someone should tell that guy he can buy bike racks actually designed for FIAT 500s... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
Understood..I'm not trying to convince you that e-bikes are a thing you should like. Mine is set up with a 0-5 pedal-assist, and I would use 0 for the riding situation you described. I like this motor on this frame in the conditions I ride in, but there are scenarios - like a MUP with joggers an

Re: [RBW] S3X wheel: first impressions and home-hacked Cambio Corsa-type shifter

2016-05-22 Thread Patrick Moore
*That's* why I bought it -- I used a 12 v bottle generator for a brief while. "Suicide" may be right, with my stiffness. Bending down and reaching between my right leg and frame to shift while having to pedal is awkward, to say the least. But shifting with this setup is meant to be an occasional a

Re: [RBW] Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Steve Palincsar
On 05/22/2016 03:03 PM, Patrick Moore wrote: "Pelotoon" -- good one. This roadie attitude -- I don't know if it is arrogance, stupidity, or mere blithe ignorance -- affects other riders in other ways, too. A few years ago I was riding north on one of the main arteries, a 4 lane with turn la

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Steve Palincsar
On 05/22/2016 02:50 PM, Patrick Moore wrote: Expensive, but cheaper than a car. I wonder how they compare with Whizzer motors. A lot less exhaust stink and noise, for sure. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe

Re: [RBW] Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Patrick Moore
"Pelotoon" -- good one. This roadie attitude -- I don't know if it is arrogance, stupidity, or mere blithe ignorance -- affects other riders in other ways, too. A few years ago I was riding north on one of the main arteries, a 4 lane with turn lanes, entering the bedroom community of Rio Rancho ad

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
1. The highest speed I've seen with this kit on its original KHS frame; and now CLEM yesterday; is a pedal-pushed 28mph, which is easily do-able on descents around here without a motor. It rides like a normal stoutish-built Rivendell with a bunch of weight added in. The motor's top speed on flat

[RBW] Re: New cassette issue...any ideas?

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
Thanks for the ideas, everyone. If it doesn't settle in this week I will investigate further. I don't think it is a frame or DO or derailer alignment issue as everything ran perfectly with the old setup. But I will look into those things if it doesn't settle in. I didn't torque with a torque w

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Steve Palincsar
On 05/22/2016 01:33 PM, Lungimsam wrote: I dont temember the model. Only know what the salesman said. Quoting the Wikipedia: /An //*electric bicycle*//, also known as an //*e-bike*//or //*booster bike*//, is a //bicycle //with an integrated /

Re: [RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
I dont temember the model. Only know what the salesman said. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. T

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
I am just guessing, based on the report that at my LBS they say that their model can get up to 40mph inside their parking lot. I don't think too many humans could get a bike going that fast in such a short distance based on leg power. So I was deducing the possibility of acute strain on chainsta

[RBW] Re: How do you know what the VAT/duty is going to be if you buy from EU/Japan?

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
...which makes me wonder, if a german vendor can sell for $75, what was their cost to buy from manufacturer? Let's say 50$. Then is that the US vendors' cost, too? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this gr

[RBW] Re: How do you know what the VAT/duty is going to be if you buy from EU/Japan?

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
As of today, bike24 has that new B&M IQX 100 lux light for $75.34USD (67.14 euros, no VAT because coming to USA) (before shipping and any duty/tax). USA vendors are charging 140-something, iirc before shipping. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW O

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
The only concerns I would have with continuing with the eClemming are: 1. That battery looks heavy. Might make it easy to pop unwanted wheelies. 2. If you plan to keep running this e-version of a Clem, maybe call RBW to confirm that it will not void your un-warranty. With the recent blug post a

[RBW] FS - Simplex Retrofriction Downtube Shifters

2016-05-22 Thread Daniel Jackson
I'll take 'em! On mobile so can't reply privately. PayPal address for payment? Thanks, Daniel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners

Re: [RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
Oh it definitely means controlling the lane so no one can pass, too. I just mean that for my comment above, "take the lane" just means to stay in the lane and not on the shoulder. I should have used a different phrase for clarity. Nice call to contact the club riders' president, Steve. Any club

Re: [RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Steve Palincsar
On 05/22/2016 11:36 AM, Lungimsam wrote: When I sat take the lane I don't mean to block the lane, I just mean don't ride on the shoulder but ride inside the lane, even if just to the left of the fog line (on USA roads). Just as long as you are in the lane and not on the shoulder. Usually

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
When I sat take the lane I don't mean to block the lane, I just mean don't ride on the shoulder but ride inside the lane, even if just to the left of the fog line (on USA roads). Just as long as you are in the lane and not on the shoulder. -- You received this message because you are subscribe

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
Taking the lane can mean riding in the lane, but to the right, even just to the left of the fog line (on USA roads). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
*Take that lane! Just take it! :)* If there are no cars, I'm riding in the lane, unless it is a huge shoulder in good condition. So I would have kept my lane on a road with a tiny shoulder, and the peloton could go around or follow behind. They can choose which to do based on *being responsible

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread ted
When I hear the phrase "take the lane" it brings to mind moving well into the lane, perhaps to the middle, to discourage or prevent cars from "sharing the lane" with the rider. In the situation that Jay describes I think doing that would be unwise. Most likely it would have resulted in his bein

[RBW] FS: Carradice, Nigel Smythe, Minnehaha bags; Nitto Campee front rack w/ detachable lowriders

2016-05-22 Thread Julian
For sale are three bags and a Nitto Campee rack. Details below, photos here https://flic.kr/s/aHskADwFKN 1) Carradice Barley saddlebag. Green. Very good condition. $85 shipped w/in conus. 2) Minnehaha medium saddlebag. Black. Like new. $40 shipped w/in conus. 3) Nigel Smythe small loa

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
The kit is the highest-power one from Doug in Fairfield, CA. Great guy..I bought it used, then he sold me the pedal-assist parts (it was throttle only) and relaced the wheel to 26 inch. Tell 'im Joe sent ya! gocarlite.com 2013 Abarth https://flic.kr/p/GYMJsQ -- You received this message becaus

[RBW] Re: Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Deacon Patrick
I can't speak to being passed by a peloton, but my default is to take the lane. It makes me visible, is clear of debris and obstacles (at least more than the shoulder), and I am more visible and always treated as traffic when I do (even if people aren't happy that I'm traffic). With abandon, Pa

[RBW] Re: FS - Sugino Alpina Crankset 175mm 48/34 110mm BCD

2016-05-22 Thread stoker
SOLD! On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 3:53:48 PM UTC-5, pb wrote: > > Bob, > > I tried PM'ing again, and here also is my email address. > > pbridge130 AT aol DOT com > > Thanks, > > pb > > > > On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 10:53:32 AM UTC-7, stoker wrote: > >> Hi Peter - I did not receive. >> >> Bob

Re: [RBW] S3X wheel: first impressions and home-hacked Cambio Corsa-type shifter

2016-05-22 Thread Eric Norris
That’s a bracket to hold a bottle generator. Peter White sells them. I like the hack. Reminds me of the suicide shifter on the old Harleys. --Eric Norris campyonly...@me.com www.campyonly.com campyonlyguy.blogspot.com > On May 21, 2016, at 9:09 PM, Patrick Moore wrote: > > I struggled for seve

[RBW] Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread jeffrey kane
Jay, it sounds like you did the right thing (getting to the right). I always remind myself to do the same in that I know that there's always going to be someone (or something) looking to go faster. Unfortunately, in this case, you came up on the obstacle of the sewer grate -- but if you didn't s

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Jeremy Tavan
That seems like a fabulous idea to me. I've been trying to figure out the role that each of my bikes will fill, and the idea of an electric-assist conversion for the clem hadn't occurred to me. But you're right, the clem would make a nice, roomy, stable platform for such a conversion, and it wo

Re: [RBW] Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Steve Palincsar
I think I'd try to take it a bit farther, see if it would be possible to identify the club running the ride, and contact the club leadership and voice your complaints. What that group did was irresponsible and unsafe, and they need to be called out for it. If you can track them down, a face t

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread LLM
Make and model? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owner

Re: [RBW] Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Patrick Moore
Jay -- I think safety for a cyclist requires that you be somewhat aggressive - aggressive in ensuring the rights that keep you out of danger, such as taking a lane. Yes, I would have taken the lane and, further, if someone crowded me, I'd have crowded back -- this last action would be supererogator

[RBW] Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

2016-05-22 Thread Jay LePree
Hi group, I am writing to ask how you would have handled this and to get a bad action off my chest. Today, I was coming home with some baked goods after my ride in Nyack, NY on my Rambouillet, set up with a big saddle bag..Clearly not a race type looking bicycle. I was on a road with a narrow

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Lungimsam
Very cool. Looks like fun. My wife wants an ebike for her next bike. A Ricendell with Copenhagen wheel would be cool. Rivendell could just sell Copenhagen wheels on their site. But they are very expensive. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners

[RBW] Re: Experience with mini "half clips" ?

2016-05-22 Thread Ron Mc
my daughter rode many miles on MKS city pedals with nylon half-clips. She's happier with Fyxation Mesa 61 platforms. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a

Re: [RBW] Re: New cassette issue...any ideas?

2016-05-22 Thread Ron Mc
did you get the correct torque on the cassette? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to t

Re: [RBW] Re: Seeking advice: How to clean bartape off my Albatross bars

2016-05-22 Thread Steve Palincsar
How does it compare in effectiveness with other, less flammable solvents such as mineral spirits? On 05/21/2016 06:35 PM, bing.grosbeak wrote: Oh yes, I should have mentioned that caveat! Definitely only use the stuff outdoors - it is supremely flammable, but perfectly safe if appropriate caut

Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

2016-05-22 Thread masmojo
I personally feel like a disk brake is not a never do item for Grant, but it would be a tough call for him I am sure. He has those things that he clings to, but he has come around to other concepts over the years. Things have to make sense to him, he's obviously been weighing the pros and cons.

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread masmojo
I am not opposed to E-assist, in some cases; a motor sports fan myself. I do have to admit out of all the bikes I have, my Clementine is the one I feel could benefit the most from something like this & when I am plodding up a hill with 12lbs of crap in the basket, cartoon images of typhoon tai

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread Joe Bernard
I'm a current motorhead (I love auto racing and my FIAT Abarth) and ex motorcycle rider, so this clicks several boxes for me. I don't consider eCLEM a replacement for my non-assist bikes; it's kind of a different thing, like a really light, low-power motorbike you can pedal. I know Grant had n

[RBW] Re: eCLEM

2016-05-22 Thread iamkeith
I probably SHOULD be disgusted but tinkerer, ex-motorhead in me is really intrigued. I have an old fat bike frame that I daydream about trying this with. Please let us know how well it works. Good on you for taking the chance and opening yourself up to critique, if nothing else! On Sun