Steve,
I lost out of a similar job over similar arguments. The exception is that this
job also had barrels. A couple of points: there was an article in NFPA journal
from 2018 that did address this. There is supposedly a DISCUS (Distilled
Spirits Council of the United States)
The last dielectric joint I saw was a 9” piece of CPVC
>
> On Feb 28, 2022 at 11:22 AM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> Craig, From literature I have, SS has an anodic index of approximately 0.60
> V while
NFPA 13 (2013) section 8.15.5.2 says that sprinklers may be omitted in
elevator pits for “enclosed, non-combustible…” elevator shafts. What
constitutes an “enclosed” shaft?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080
Scott, If you go to the definitions of Obstructed and Unobstructed
construction, it talks about the construction type impeding the heat flow or
water distribution. Apply that to your situation.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
I would treat them as is they are a standard unit heater
>
> On Feb 14, 2022 at 11:20 AM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have a question for the forumites regarding infrared heaters. We have a
> project that have several
I have 1980 if you need that. There was a minor change between 1975 and 1980
in the tabular data, but other than tat, they are the same.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054
The track, basketball and tennis courts themselves would be Light Hazard. For
the climbing wall, take a look at the construction (and beware of concealed
spaces). One of the things about Field Houses is that they can become multi-use
facilities. You may want to take that into
inkler.org)> On Behalf Of
> Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 10:10 AM To:
> Sprinklerforum (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> Cc: Fpdcdesign
> mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com)> Subject: Maker Space I
> am working on a project wh
I am working on a project where an existing building (Light Hazard) is being
converted to an Innovation Lab and Maker Space. I thinking that this is going
to need to be upgraded to Ordinary Hazard. Not sure at this time about 1 or 2.
What have others been doing with these spaces?
When I saw this, my knee-jerk reaction was EH2 for shielded fire. However, I
was on a job site and had a 1:15 ride back to think about it.
Most automobiles are enclosed and any fire started inside would be “shielded”.
But a parking garage has been OH1 for a long time
I wouldn’t think one is sufficient. Any motion due to pressure fluctuations
could create a problem.
That being said, I would sit across the street in a lawn chair with a couple of
beers and watch the 200 psi test.
>
> On Jan 5, 2022 at 9:33 AM,
Steve, that stuff happens on the other coast, too. A few years ago I had
someone come in at half the design price I quoted. I told the client I can’t
come near that, so the other guy got it. A few months later, the low bidder
called to hire me to get the plan through review. I told
This occupancy needs an FPE to determine criteria.
>
> On Dec 15, 2021 at 9:26 AM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> James, I'm curious what is your plan for sprinkler protection of these
> materials? For many in the IB
I am working on a project with an ESFR system and we have some ductwork
installed below it. The duct system is T shaped with 24” wide section 50 ft
long and 30” wide section 12’-6” long protruding from the center of the 24”.
The top of the duct is 3’-8” below the sprinkler
Spacing of trusses?
>
> On Dec 8, 2021 at 3:27 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, I am working on the wood frame building with Flat roofs. Open Web Wood
> trusses are the overhead structure, The roof Deck above is
Are the fitters using the iPads to just to mark ups or for actually doing the
install? I have been using Foxit on my iPad for surveys for 5+ years. It is far
from perfect but is not bad. I mark up the plan using an Apple Pencil. I load,
backup and store in Dropbox. From there I will
Is there a Code information sheet from the architect? Check to see what
allowances have been taken.
Is the separation enough for this to be treated as two buildings or is it a
single building?
My gut answer says no to 13R but the differences in construction could make a
Making clients trapeze branch lines is a good way to piss them off.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
I think I have posted on this in the past. “Mercantile” is too broad a term
for today’s environment and does not reflect what is going on. You almost need
to have a Mercantile 1, Mercantile 2 and Mercantile 3 to adjust for different
hazards
>
> On Oct 28,
I typically use option 2. Sometimes the framing at the peak can be a little
funky and it is easier to adjust a smaller line. Also, I will put 1” outlets on
any welded pipe for attic sprinklers, in case sprigs become necessary.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection
Look up the definition of a gridded and looped systems in 13. See what fits
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
What jumps out to me is the spray foam insulation. I’m not sure that the
requirements for a typical paint spray booth would be applicable. Two very
different products. I would look for any research or testing done on that
specific product. Also the MSDS for it as a liquid and a
I have never designed a system with a break tank, however I am working on one
project where this may be a viable option. Is there any good information one
designing a system with one of these?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
I am working on the renovation of an upscale bridal store where there a
several partial height walls being installed. The spaces created by the walls
are semi-private consulting areas. The top of the walls is 1’-10” below the
ceiling. The existing concealed sprinklers are spaced at
The Handbook commentary should be helpful.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
> On Sep 9, 2021 at
I am working on a project with a therapy pool that is recessed into the floor
with its own pit. There is a service area (stand up height) in the pit adjacent
to the pool for maintenance. The walls, ceiling and floor are concrete and the
pool enclosure is metal. Sprinklers in the
Is there any combustible construction within the stairway?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
> On
I am doing a renovation of the main corridors in a multi-building complex.
Standard response sprinklers for any new sprinklers to match the existing to
remain. Hydraulic calculations are required. There are 2 section of corridor,
about 35 ft each, that are 16 ft wide and will need
James,
I’m sure what Craig sent you was pretty thorough, but the Hydraulic Institute
Standards has a lot of detail on suction pit design.
>
> On Jun 2, 2021 at 5:06 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> We
Look under “Scope” in NFPA 13R, both the main part and the appendix.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
et) -Original
> Message- From: Sprinklerforum
> (mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org)> On Behalf Of
> Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 11:32 AM To:
> Sprinklerforum (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> Cc:
Tim,
I think this is one of those issues that is going to require engineering
judgement and should probably be made by a PE. My first question would be ‘they
may be nonflammable , but are they noncombustible?’ See NFPA 30 for the
definitions. Next I would look at the
Micah,
For you to even begin to apply that, they would have to be segregated storage
racks no more than 12 ft high. If you are talking about just storing the
plastics in the 25 ft racks but only to 12 ft high, that doesn’t work. See
section 5.6.1.2 (2016 edition)
The question is now moot because they went and tested the pump by actually
flowing water and it ran fine. The problem lies in the testing process and that
is someone else’s headache.
>
> On Apr 19, 2021 at 5:05 PM,
How do you prove the designer did it to balance flow?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
> On Apr
I’m not sure there is such a section. I’ve had extended sidewalls in parts of
a room and regular pendants in the other.
>
> On Apr 19, 2021 at 2:24 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm trying to locate the
Are they’re any good resources about testing a fire pump with a flow meter
where it feeds back into the suction piping? I have been given a couple of
tests with very screwy results. Thanks
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
I have done a few of these. I am not sure about 2019, but 2016 main and
appendix describe how to do this. You are pretty much in the right track
>
> On Apr 13, 2021 at 6:51 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> Any takers? Does
OS valves
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
> On Apr 1, 2021 at 5:29 PM,
Also dimensions might help
>
> On Apr 1, 2021 at 9:31 AM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> In the absence of language about what that obstruction is, and what might be
> below it, it seems clear the intent is to allow
The goal is to make it not look like a sprinkler system. The one issue may
come across is if the pipe is painted red. People may automatically look at
that as active sprinkler. You may want to consider doing something (paint,
stripe, etc) to make it contrast the actual sprinkler pipe.
How can you isolate a check valve in a line that specifically excludes
control valves?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559
Who’s stamp goes on the drawing?
>
> On Feb 20, 2021 at 8:17 AM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> While I agree it is not our “job” as NICET techs to classify the hazard,
> that doesn’t exempt us from all
EH1 due in part to the aircraft being an obstruction to discharge.I didn’t
pull out 409 to check on the specifics of Group III.
>
> On Feb 19, 2021 at 6:21 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have been
>
> "George has a warehouse, that is storing nothing, how should he protect it?"
>
>
>
>
Is this a fire official’s definition of nothing or a building owner’s
definition of nothing?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
My thoughts exactly, Mr Prahl.
>
> On Feb 11, 2021 at 3:46 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> If I have 4-heads of OH2 in a 500 sf space I have to calc it and size
> everything as if I had a 1500 sf design
Flame retardant coatings has to be installed according to strict guidelines
and the thickness of the coating needs to be verified after installation. Tends
to be expensive. Most projects I have worked on have junked that idea for that
reason.
>
> On Feb 10, 2021
What liability do you assume by removing an existing, operating sprinkler
system?
>
> On Feb 4, 2021 at 1:42 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> One approach that I have seen in a similar situation: If the are not
> separated
Is this is what you are looking at?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
> On Feb 1, 2021 at
Tyco has all of that stuff on file
>
> On Dec 19, 2020 at 6:26 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> Anyone have a old cut sheet on a central SSP52? Have a fire marshal wanting
> to know how far the deflector should protrude
Sean,
Doesn’t 12.7.2 address your example?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
https://www.bavco.com/ref-manual-manufacturer.php?id=11=beeco-hersey-backflow-repair
>
> On Dec 1, 2020 at 12:47 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> Can anyone tell me where to find a pressure loss graph for a 6" Hersey #2
>
This needs to be reviewed and criteria specified by an FPE
>
> On Nov 5, 2020 at 1:11 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm confused about how to treat Class IA flammable liquids. We've got a
> cosmetics manufacturer that is
I tried to make an argument once that a jewelry store could be OH1 (rocks and
metal in metal and glass cases) and got nowhere.
>
> On Oct 9, 2020 at 5:20 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> Is there any world where a
Are you required to use concealed space sprinklers?
If it meets the NFPA definition of a room and the requirements of 11.2.3.3 are
met, then you should be able to use it above a ceiling. Be sure of any fire
resistance rating requirements.
Todd G Williams, PE
Potable water? Sprinkler, standpipe or both?
>
> On Sep 10, 2020 at 10:33 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yeah, house boats lol On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:18 PM Prahl, Craig/GVL via
> Sprinklerforum <
Give them a price to survey, do a flow test, draw and Calc the system. If
everything is above Sheetrock ceilings or is otherwise buried, give them your
competition’s number.
>
> On Aug 6, 2020 at 8:07 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)>
Are the stairs wood?
>
> On Jul 24, 2020 at 12:43 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
> Is Sprinkler Protection required under intermediate landings of Combustible
> Construction Stairways even though all finished surfaces are to be
Not for.a 13R. For one thing, would the well pump be able to 60 gpm (4
sprinklers at 13 gpm + overage)?And do that at a 40 psi pressure? And
sustain that for 30 minutes? Not likely that a well pump or residential sized
well could do that.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire
Are you concerned about permanent obstructions or temporary obstructions?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
Ed, I think you need at least one more post. Your reflections of your time in
this industry. I echo everyone else in thanking you for all you have
contributed.
>
> On Jun 19, 2020 at 4:48 AM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
14 K8.0 sprinklers at 7 psi calculates to min 296 gallons.
>
> On Jun 16, 2020 at 7:49 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> The spec is demanding 8.0K for the LH areas.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I am actually working on a foam mattress manufacturer right now. Expanded
Group A plastic. You would have to check if they are exposed or in cardboard
boxes. Some mattresses are compressed and put into boxes. I’m not sure how a
compressed foam mattress would behave in a fire
I might as well add my crap into this as well...
The first thing I see is that there is a major disconnect between fire
protection and installing sprinkler systems. Unless they have been through it,
nobody gives a shit about fire protection and fewer understand it. That
The N95 masks that everyone is talking about means that is will filter out of
95% of the 3 microns or larger. The Covid 19 virus is approximately 0.17
microns but usually travels attached to a fluid droplet, which is larger. The
thickness of a piece of paper is about 100 microns.
Is the data cable rated?
>
> On May 21, 2020 at 11:44 AM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Or as in many jurisdictions, file an appeal.
>
>
>
>
>
> John Drucker
>
>
>
>
>
ctures, but it
> > could be read that way. If that was the argument, then someone would be
> > saying that an aluminum frame was less fire safe than one made of FRT wood.
> > That also seems unlikely.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > My vote
covered with
> inherently flame resistant fabric overlay.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Sprinklerforum On
> Behalf Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
> Sent:
I am working on a building that has two 22 ft wide x 10 ft deep exterior
canopies. The construction is fire retardant fabric over an aluminum frame.
There is no storage underneath. NFPA 13 section 8.15.2.7 reference omitting
sprinklers where fire retardant wood is present, but
.15?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Van Kolken
>
>
>
> Millennium Fire Protection Corp.
>
>
>
> 2950 San Luis Rey Rd.
>
>
>
> Oceanside, CA 92058
>
>
>
> (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
>
>
>
>
>
I have all of the Codes/Handbooks from 1980, 1983, 1985, 1987... complete up
to 2016. There was not an 18 year gap
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054)
The issue is the fact that you could have a fire shielded from the sprinklers
until it is fully involved. At that point, is OH2 adequate?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054
Extra Hazard Group 7? Niagara Falls?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
> On Mar
I assume you are talking about on ground and not rack storage. Ground storage
I use Extra Hazard Group II. I don’t believe you can take the QR reduction with
EH occupancies.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080
First, even if it is not required by the standard, you would calculate it as
if it was.
Second, is the design such that a single balcony requires 4 or more sprinklers?
>
> On Mar 10, 2020 at 12:23 AM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
I have been doing this for a while. My stamp is on my plot sheets on a
separate layer that can be turned on and off. I have a picture file of my
stamps in Foxit PDF that I can insert on calculations, etc. I use DocuSign for
signature. That allows you to use an actual signature
Could you give a few more details? What is in the tanks? Why are they there?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
I did one last year. A pain in the butt
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
> On Feb 18, 2020 at
Scot beat me to it. It is a Code issue and the AHJ and the insurance company
will have input. If it is not your expertise, keep away from it. There may also
be restrictions on pipe penetrations as well.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington,
What is supporting the metal deck?
>
> On Feb 17, 2020 at 9:05 AM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I have a customer that intended to use horizontal sidewall sprinklers under
> an exposed corrugated metal
I am working on a rather unique project where a dry system in being installed
in one building that is going to protect that plus a second building.
(Logistically impossible to get underground to second building. Think boathouse
on a dock.) The plans call for valves in the dry system
My guess is that this is really BIM vs non-BIM. I have been finding that some
design packages are eliminating the term BIM and but requiring all the BIM-type
coordination. I think this is to not trigger BIM exclusions in contracts and to
get the same stuff without having to pay the
Craig beat me to the send button with those comments. The other thing to
consider would be if the oil is flammable, it may not be able to be stored in
the same room with the hemp.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080
Tony,
I would say only those considered Cultural Resources. I think section 1.1.1
kind of clarifies this.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
>
> On Oct 24,
I don’t recall anything in 13 about duration of stay in a hotel.
>
> On Oct 15, 2019 at 5:18 PM, (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> NFPA 13 does not require sprinklers in washrooms & closets (depending on
> size)
23.4.4.1. Replace “Remote” with “hydraulically most demanding”. Hydraulically
most demanding is not always a perfect rectangle. Use the 1.2X as the starting
point and go from there.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080
Could the LHD be moved away from the door?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
>
> On Sep 3, 2019 at 7:25 AM,
A flow test with multiple residual pressures is often done as a hydraulic
gradient to determine where a potential problem exists in a water main. I
haven’t done one in a while but may have something deep in the archives.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection
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