Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On 2021-04-09 1:58 p.m., David Mason via talk wrote: > > The key part of what Lennart wrote is “if done right”. How could you > imagine that the functional program would return the results out of > order? Well, this particular DSSSL thing did occasionally put lists out of order, and didn't have a

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 11:07:35AM -0700, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote: > Ha, and many programmers I know these days want the computer to get > out of the way, and functional programming gives them a way to do > that. > > I think there are "niches" for both styles, and as pointed out > elsewhere, i

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 01:58:02PM -0400, David Mason via talk wrote: > The key part of what Lennart wrote is “if done right”. How could you imagine > that the functional program would return the results out of order? > Compilers/interpreters are allow to make whatever optimizations they want, as

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 01:44:58PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote: > I'd agree if I were doing something like wanting the sum of the values > of a list. /list.sum()/ is going to be many times more efficient than an > accumulator loop on a system that's got any level of vectorization. > Ch

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

> > Call me old-fashioned, but I want my computers to do what I tell them. I > don't want exceptions, I want results or error messages to explain why. > I know there are many processes running that do things I'll never > understand, but they must prove themselves useful to me or get out of my > way

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 10:58 AM David Mason via talk wrote: > > On Apr 9, 2021, 1:45 PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk , > wrote: > > After all with a loop you are controlling the > execution order of the processing. If done right you usually shouldn't > need to care. > > > But in document p

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Apr 9, 2021, 1:45 PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk , wrote: > After all with a loop you are controlling the > execution order of the processing.  If done right you usually shouldn't > need to care. > > > But in document processing, you really really /really/ want the output > to come out i

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

(oops, don't you hate it with the mail client silently assumes you only want to reply to the sender?) On Fri, 9 Apr 2021 at 11:51, Lennart Sorensen mailto:lsore...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>> wrote: But using a loop means you are telling the system how to do things, rather than telling it what

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 02:46:01PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote: > The only functional languages I've ever used (if openscad doesn't count) > were DSSSL (Scheme with an embedded CSS engine for document processing > in SGML) and XSLT (Scheme [except it's in XML syntax] with an embedded >

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On 2021-04-07 11:21 a.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: > > When I was an undergrad at University of Waterloo, we were required to > use FORTRAN (WatFiv). I hated it. I liked the notation of Algol > better and Algol-W (W for Wirth) was a good implementation for student > uses. I even creat

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 12:29:18PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote: > Can you throw few names of "functional languages" at us non-compsci folks? ML (and hence CAML and OCAML), F#, LISP (and hence Scheme and such), SML, Haskell, Scala, Clojure, Erlang and many more. Main idea (to me at least) i

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

Haskell, Scheme, Lisp, Elixir (mostly), Elm, Clojure Static OO is kinda an oxymoron. Smalltalk, Ruby, Python are good OO (in my highly opinionated opinion). ../Dave On Apr 8, 2021, 12:29 PM -0400, William Park via talk , wrote: > On 4/8/21 11:37 AM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote: > > If I had

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On 4/8/21 11:37 AM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote: If I had my way, functional languages would be what is used, and definitely not any that were object oriented, at least not in the way C++ and Java are. Multiple inheritance should not exist. Can you throw few names of "functional languages"

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 12:46:49AM -0400, Nicholas Krause via talk wrote: > While I would agree with your other points. The problem is you have two > choices either a) people have to learn a newer way of doing OO or b) > keep doing the same thing for the most part. Unfortunately, when designing > a

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On 4/7/21 5:44 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote: On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 11:21:52AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: When I was an undergrad at University of Waterloo, we were required to use FORTRAN (WatFiv). I hated it. I liked the notation of Algol better and Algol-W (W for Wi

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 11:21:52AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: > When I was an undergrad at University of Waterloo, we were required to > use FORTRAN (WatFiv). I hated it. I liked the notation of Algol > better and Algol-W (W for Wirth) was a good implementation for student > uses.

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021, 2:11 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk, wrote: > | From: Evan Leibovitch via talk > > | Since copyright terms exist for many years after the creator's death, > that > | fact is far less relevant than one might think. > > Absolutely correct. I was trying to be funny, responding

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk | Since copyright terms exist for many years after the creator's death, that | fact is far less relevant than one might think. Absolutely correct. I was trying to be funny, responding literally to what was said. The work is now in the public domain since Brenda

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 at 10:42, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: > | I'm not sure that Brendan Behan would object to the Toronto Irish Players > | copying the script of Borstal Boy to introduce it to the citizens of > | Toronto, but I might be wrong about that as well. > > Since he is dead, you c

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 10:41:22 -0400 (EDT) "D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk" wrote: > The copyright law is quite draconian. People violate it on a regular > basis (well documented in many articles). That's the only way it > becomes bearable. Hugh, Here is a nice article from Web Pages that Suck..

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On 2021-04-07 11:21 a.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: When I was an undergrad at University of Waterloo, we were required to use FORTRAN (WatFiv). I hated it. I got that at Ryerson.  Back then, I used to do my homework on a VAX 11/780. --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsu

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

| From: Lennart Sorensen via talk | Many languages (probably most of them) prevent many of the bugs C makes | easy to create. Many of them are better than java. When I was an undergrad at University of Waterloo, we were required to use FORTRAN (WatFiv). I hated it. I liked the notation of Alg

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

| From: Russell Reiter via talk | I may be wrong. I was a member of an amature theatre group, we photocopied | the stuff anyway. I think it was one of the teachers in that heritage group | who put it that way to me, as a cultural right. I'm pretty sure that that's wishful thinking. Rationalizat

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 06:10:25PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: > I wasn't there, but... > > Background: > > I think Sun was a great proponent of open standards. They won for a long > time by introducing new ones and always being a step ahead of the other > workstation and server

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

The actual ruling document should be quite readable by most participants here; I recommend a look. It actually reads more like tech speak then legelase, and appears to do a thorough job of laying the foundation for the decision. It inde

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 5:44 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: > | To: D. Hugh Redelmeier , GTALUG Talk > > | From: Russell Reiter via talk > > | On Tuesday, 6 April 2021, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk > | wrote: > > | Quite so. In Oracles case I believe the issues of patent were tossed > rig

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

| From: David Collier-Brown via talk | | On 2021-04-06 4:27 p.m., James Knott via talk wrote: | | > I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that Sun made Java available and | > encouraged it's use.  Then when Oracle bought Sun, they tried to rein it | > back in.  They did the same with OpenOffice

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

| To: D. Hugh Redelmeier , GTALUG Talk | From: Russell Reiter via talk | On Tuesday, 6 April 2021, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk | wrote: | Quite so. In Oracles case I believe the issues of patent were tossed right | away leaving only the issue of copyright I said so in the first message on th

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On 2021-04-06 4:27 p.m., James Knott via talk wrote: I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that Sun made Java available and encouraged it's use.  Then when Oracle bought Sun, they tried to rein it back in.  They did the same with OpenOffice.  So, this boils down to Oracle retroactively and un

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:27 PM James Knott via talk wrote: > On 2021-04-06 4:15 p.m., Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 02:30:14PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote: > >> I prefer Oracle to win. Then, Google would be forced to dump Java and > find > >> replacement. >

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:16 PM Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 02:30:14PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote: > > I prefer Oracle to win. Then, Google would be forced to dump Java and > find > > replacement. > > The result on the entire industry would not be worth it.

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 2:47 PM Nicholas Krause via talk wrote: > > > On 4/6/21 2:17 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: > > | From: Russell Reiter via talk > > | > > | I read that article with interest after I had used a > pharmacological/health > > | sciences metaphore about copyright in ano

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On 2021-04-06 4:15 p.m., Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote: On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 02:30:14PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote: I prefer Oracle to win.  Then, Google would be forced to dump Java and find replacement. The result on the entire industry would not be worth it. If you don't want t

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 02:30:14PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote: > I prefer Oracle to win.  Then, Google would be forced to dump Java and find > replacement. The result on the entire industry would not be worth it. If you don't want them to use java, you don't have to use android. Apple se

[GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Tuesday, 6 April 2021, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: > | From: Russell Reiter via talk > | > | I read that article with interest after I had used a > pharmacological/health > | sciences metaphore about copyright in another thread. > > Most drugs are "protected" by patent legislation. Ve

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On 4/6/21 2:17 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: | From: Russell Reiter via talk | | I read that article with interest after I had used a pharmacological/health | sciences metaphore about copyright in another thread. Most drugs are "protected" by patent legislation. Very different from

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

I prefer Oracle to win.  Then, Google would be forced to dump Java and find replacement. On 4/6/21 1:06 PM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote: On Tue, Apr 6, 2021, 12:31 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk, mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote: Oracle sued Google, claiming Android infringed Oracle's pat

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

| From: Russell Reiter via talk | | I read that article with interest after I had used a pharmacological/health | sciences metaphore about copyright in another thread. Most drugs are "protected" by patent legislation. Very different from copyright. Perhaps surprisingly, trademark law is very

Re: [GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021, 12:31 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk, wrote: > Oracle sued Google, claiming Android infringed Oracle's patents on Java. > Somehow. That failed. > > So they sued for copyright infringement based on the copying of the API > declarations. > > The computer community had been ver

[GTALUG] Google wins over Oracle in Java API copyright suit

Oracle sued Google, claiming Android infringed Oracle's patents on Java. Somehow. That failed. So they sued for copyright infringement based on the copying of the API declarations. The computer community had been very scared that APIs could be copyrighted, something nobody had expected. The