Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Vào lúc 08:46 2022-09-30, Andrew Hain đã viết: The Wikidata links haven’t gone away; they’re in the OSM data items where they are easily machine readable and can be curated against accidental divergences between languages. The other description arguments could just as easily follow (there’s no problem with them being listed in the wiki infoboxes) but, given the similarities between data items and Wikidata, I suppose it makes sense to start here. Thank you for this clarification. I was momentarily confused by the discrepancy between what was proposed in [1] and the alarm expressed in this thread. Mateusz already went out of his way to accommodate us Wikidata aficionados, sending his QID removal idea through the feature proposal process instead of discussing it on an obscure template talk page like most template edits. I can see how it still came as a surprise to those less familiar with how the templates work, but I don't think these edits are actually of much consequence, because the data item statements remain. In the future, if the community ever changes its mind about showing the QIDs on the infobox, the infobox template can simply read it directly from the data item. It would be quite ironic for any data consumer to be scraping an unused template parameter to discover a Wikidata QID of all things. I would expect any data consumer enlightened enough to work with these QIDs to also be capable of accessing the data items. (Data items are a joy to work with compared to scraping wikitext. Changed my life. [2]) Mateusz, if this bot gets a mind of its own and starts deleting P12 statements from data items, please let a wiki administrator know. We can temporarily block the bot while you make repairs. [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/2410997#Remove_wikidata_parameters_from_infoboxes [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:PermanentLink/2399907#Getting_compound_key_documentation_from_the_MediaWiki_API -- m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Sep 30, 2022, 18:19 by marc_m...@mailo.com: > you're deleting a *data*, an info (the match between tag > and a wikidata item) on the wiki > Just to confirm: are you aware that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree has matching data item https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4723 which contains this link to wikidata? In which kind of use you would be unable to use "Wikidata concept" field in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4723 but you would need a defunct wikidata parameter of infobox visible only in the edit mode? (before Wikidata link display was removed all data was replicated to data items) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Date: Sep 30, 2022, 18:26 From: marc_m...@mailo.com To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ? > Hello, > > Le 30.09.22 à 13:36, Frederik Ramm a écrit : > >> "Make link far less prominent" is not the same as "delete link". >> > Therefore the bot activity has, in my opinion, no community backing and needs > to be stopped and reverted. > Thanks for your opinion, I hope it will be a consensus > 1) complete removal of display was approved in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes 2) removal of now defunct wikidata parameter was approved by https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Remove_wikidata_parameters_from_infoboxes If you think that modification of wikicode visible only to OSM Wiki editors (or bot edits on OSM Wiki) require more substantial approval feel free to propose a new policy for that but note that - it would be better to propose it on wiki - it would be a new policy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Hello, Le 30.09.22 à 13:36, Frederik Ramm a écrit : "Make link far less prominent" is not the same as "delete link". Therefore the bot activity has, in my opinion, no community backing and needs to be stopped and reverted. Thanks for your opinion, I hope it will be a consensus Regards, Marc ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Le 30.09.22 à 15:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk a écrit : Sep 30, 2022, 14:55 by marc_m...@mailo.com: Le 30.09.22 à 14:42, Mateusz Konieczny via talk a écrit : Not entirely sure what should be done differently. if you want to vote on "hide", use an url and a title with *hide*, as you did. but not a "it's hide but somewhere i said that hive mean I 'll delete it", that's unfair and imho a mistake. url and title had "remove" ho yes sorry, my sentence wasn't clear i wanted to say "hide the link" <> remove the data. the url is "remove *link*... from the *infoxbox*" But today you aren't removing a *link* nor changing something at the *infobox*. you're deleting a *data*, an info (the match between tag and a wikidata item) on the wiki What other word should be used to make it more clear? *delete* wikidata=* from wiki template" [2] The screenshot also shows that you were focusing on the visual of the link on the infobox no place shows this kind of modification "before : |wikidata=Q10884" after "" https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=FR:Tag:natural%3Dtree=next=2109529 (not a native speaker, but "remove" suggest quite strong action as far as I know) yes it's strong... about the link at the infobox [2] and I'm still convinced that it wasn't a good proposal, I'll start a new thread to separate : - voting on an aspect of the infobox leads to deleting a data item from the wiki - arguments for keeping links (when they are correct) between an osm tag and a wikidata Regards, Marc ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
The Wikidata links haven’t gone away; they’re in the OSM data items where they are easily machine readable and can be curated against accidental divergences between languages. The other description arguments could just as easily follow (there’s no problem with them being listed in the wiki infoboxes) but, given the similarities between data items and Wikidata, I suppose it makes sense to start here. -- Andrew From: Marc_marc Sent: 30 September 2022 11:59 To: talk Subject: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ? Hello, a few months ago, the community unfortunately voted [|] to "remove alphanumeric code visible in infoboxes at OSM Wiki linking to Wikidata" because for some tags, the item described by the tag was not the same as the one described by the wikidata item (in my opinion it is better to only delete the erroneous links instead of hiding everything) today I see that a bot is deleting the wikidata, which is not the same thing as "hide from the infobox" therefore if I want to make an application that displays natural=tree genus species in the user's language, I don't have access to the translation base that is de facto wikidata (and I would have to do like many tools: ask people to waste their time to encode the same translation again) so it's the previous vote to hide a valid arg to remove it ? do we really want the community to waste its time remaking a wikidata-osm out of ego not to use wikidata.org when it describes the same concept? is it useful ? what do we gain by breaking the link between natural=tree and |wikidata=Q10884 ? compare osm's translation list with wikidata https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4723 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q10884 of course for some, it's even worse, for ex genus=* 30 <> 125 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q310 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q34740 it's already a sad waste to have to translate every tag for the wiki + iD + josm+ + ... + ... without this [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes Regards, Marc ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
On Fri, 30 Sept 2022 at 14:51, Frederik Ramm wrote: > On 30.09.22 14:32, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > As you are well aware, I have been strongly and consistently against > > this asinine idea since it was first proposed; I don't have the energy > > to repeat myself in every new forum where you repeat it. > > Just because "asinine" is a fancy word it is no less insulting. Please > remain civil even if people don't share your Wikidata enthusiasm. > Throwing around a few insults may require less energy than making an > argument but it doesn't help. If it's an insult then I insulted an idea, not a person. Your institution that I was uncivil is false (and indeed is itself uncivil); as is your insinuation that I made no argument. I stand by what I wrote. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Hi, On 30.09.22 14:32, Andy Mabbett wrote: As you are well aware, I have been strongly and consistently against this asinine idea since it was first proposed; I don't have the energy to repeat myself in every new forum where you repeat it. Just because "asinine" is a fancy word it is no less insulting. Please remain civil even if people don't share your Wikidata enthusiasm. Throwing around a few insults may require less energy than making an argument but it doesn't help. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
On Fri, 30 Sept 2022 at 13:46, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote: > Sep 30, 2022, 14:32 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk: > > On Fri, 30 Sept 2022 at 13:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk > wrote: > > It was proposed on > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Remove_wikidata_parameters_from_infoboxes > and noone was against, so I have run it > > > As you are well aware, I have been strongly and consistently against > this asinine idea since it was first proposed; I don't have the energy > to repeat myself in every new forum where you repeat it. > > I am still waiting for reply to > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-April/064293.html > (just being against without stating reason is not worth much) I am not "against without stating reason ". The very email to which you link quotes me saying: "As I explicitly noted earlier in /this/ discussion: 'Your proposal remains flawed for reasons that have been explained to you previously and at length ... Repeatedly bludgeoning us to [..] reiterate objections does not resolve any of its flaws'. The arguments have been made, and ignored by the proponent, more than once already; they too are a matter of public record." and even if that were the cae, it does not constitute "noone was against". -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Sep 30, 2022, 14:55 by marc_m...@mailo.com: > Hello, > > Le 30.09.22 à 14:42, Mateusz Konieczny via talk a écrit : > >> Not entirely sure what should be done differently. >> > > if you want to vote on "hide", use an url and a title with *hide*, > as you did. > but not a "it's hide but somewhere i said that hive mean I 'll > delete it", that's unfair and imho a mistake. > url and title had "remove" What other word should be used to make it more clear? (not a native speaker, but "remove" suggest quite strong action as far as I know) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Hello, Le 30.09.22 à 14:42, Mateusz Konieczny via talk a écrit : Not entirely sure what should be done differently. if you want to vote on "hide", use an url and a title with *hide*, as you did. but not a "it's hide but somewhere i said that hive mean I 'll delete it", that's unfair and imho a mistake. Regards, Marc ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Sep 30, 2022, 14:32 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk: > On Fri, 30 Sept 2022 at 13:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk > wrote: > >> It was proposed on >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Remove_wikidata_parameters_from_infoboxes >> and noone was against, so I have run it >> > > As you are well aware, I have been strongly and consistently against > this asinine idea since it was first proposed; I don't have the energy > to repeat myself in every new forum where you repeat it. > I am still waiting for reply to https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-April/064293.html (just being against without stating reason is not worth much) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Sep 30, 2022, 14:08 by frede...@remote.org: > Hi, > > On 30.09.22 13:36, Frederik Ramm wrote: > >> You can't have people vote on one thing and then do something else. >> > > It occurs to me that this is what usually happens in politics. Still, we > should aim to be better ;) > And to be clear: my intention was NOT to mislead people and I am really sorry if I was insufficiently clear in any part. Not entirely sure what should be done differently. Maybe initial mistake was not making clear that ceasing to display wikidata link makes this parameter defunct and that it should be removed? It was titled "remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes" and had "this proposal will not result in a data loss, as everything in OSM Wiki was synchronized to data items" and "wikidata parameter in infoboxes on wiki pages would become inactive" and so on. But now I see that for many people implication may be not obvious :( That it implies that this parameter would become removable as dead and inactive. That is quite sad as I put a lot of effort into attempt to make this proposal clear. And I see that it had a major failure. Sorry for that. --- To clarify situation: When proposal was made all data was synchronise with data items. Anyone using wikidata links for any purpose still have access to them and if this data was useful at all they can continue to use them. --- But making second large scale edit to add back defunct parameter that is no longer present in the infobox does not seem to be a good idea. Especially as this wiki bot edit followed stricter standards than actually stated as required. --- And it is even more irritating as I am one of few people actually following rules for bot edits. Basically all bot edits and imports operate under "hopefully noone will revert this, so lets ignore rules and just do it". Or at least some rules. And I actually put quite a lot of effort into doing what is required by rules so it is a bit irritating to run into this. (see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Automated_edits_log - and it is not like I made 1/3 of all automated edits in OSM!) And on Wiki many automated edits were running without even asking on Talk:Wiki ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
On Fri, 30 Sept 2022 at 13:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote: > It was proposed on > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Remove_wikidata_parameters_from_infoboxes > and noone was against, so I have run it As you are well aware, I have been strongly and consistently against this asinine idea since it was first proposed; I don't have the energy to repeat myself in every new forum where you repeat it. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Sep 30, 2022, 14:08 by matkoni...@tutanota.com: > (note that bot edits on OSM Wiki are often done without any > requests/proposals, > and my habit of actually proposing it and waiting two weeks before running it > is more than done in general) > See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki/Archive_8#Bot_policy (maybe this discussion reveals that we should have some stricter rules? If you have some specific idea feel free to propose them, probably the proper place for that is https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki ) I took that discussion to imply that right now there are no requirements but decided to mention any planned edits at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki and wait for some time to give people opportunity to give feedback or protest. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Sep 30, 2022, 13:36 by frede...@remote.org: > "It will not lead to any data loss, but will make Wikidata link far less > prominent." > > "Make link far less prominent" is not the same as "delete link". > This proposal had "Remove rendering of Wikidata external links from bottom of the infobox" What "Make link far less prominent" meant is "you will need to get to data item to see this link" > Therefore the bot activity has, in my opinion, no community backing and needs > to be stopped and reverted. > > You can't have people vote on one thing and then do something else. > This bot edit was not done on basis of this specific vote. It was explicitly mentioned that automatic edit removing parameters from wiki pages may be done if it will go through bot approval. Which in case of OSM Wiki is done at Talk:Wiki page. It was proposed on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Remove_wikidata_parameters_from_infoboxes and noone was against, so I have run it I also posted https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes#Removal_of_migrated_parameter_from_infoboxes_-_bot_edit (note that bot edits on OSM Wiki are often done without any requests/proposals, and my habit of actually proposing it and waiting two weeks before running it is more than done in general) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Hi, On 30.09.22 13:36, Frederik Ramm wrote: You can't have people vote on one thing and then do something else. It occurs to me that this is what usually happens in politics. Still, we should aim to be better ;) -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Hi, On 30.09.22 12:59, Marc_marc wrote: do we really want the community to waste its time remaking a wikidata-osm out of ego not to use wikidata.org when it describes the same concept? I think that there is a danger of confusion here because Wikidata has its own ideas about what a tree is and they might differ from our definition, and I foresee people arguing "I am using this tag here because the Wikidata Q-whatever thing says I can". For example, on historic=monument, wikidata says in Q4989906: "imposing structure created to commemorate a person or event, or used for that purpose", whereas OSM says: "A memorial object, which is especially large (one can go inside, walk on or through it) or very tall (see the examples), built to remember, show respect to a person or group of people or to commemorate an event." These definitions are not identical and will rarely be. But having said that, I *did* think that the vote was about hiding the wikidata item from the infobox (and especially hiding the obnoxious "there's no wikidata link yet please create one") - which would have mean the removal of a couple lines of code on the infobox, instead of editing every single page with a bot. Looking back now, the vote said: "It will not lead to any data loss, but will make Wikidata link far less prominent." "Make link far less prominent" is not the same as "delete link". Therefore the bot activity has, in my opinion, no community backing and needs to be stopped and reverted. You can't have people vote on one thing and then do something else. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
It would be better to discuss it at Wiki, but I can respond here. > because for some tags, the item described by the tag was not the same > as the one described by the wikidata item (in my opinion it is better > to only delete the erroneous links instead of hiding everything) not really see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes#Rationale for reasons, match quality is only subreason and primary is that it is useless for users and if someone really needs it they can use data items Data items are often harder to process than infobox parameter parsing[1], but someone planning to use Wikidata identifier will need to parse them anyway. [1] at least in Python and JS and any other language that have wikicode parsing library > therefore if I want to make an application that displays natural=tree genus > species in the user's language, I don't have access to the translation base that is de facto wikidata (1) you have still access to wikidata genus species entries and it is not being changed at all (2) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:natural%3Dtree=2409181=2386673 edit removed dead parameter |wikidata=Q10884 and linking natural=tree to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q10884 is not helping at all in something that displays natural=tree genus species (3) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4723 data item still has link to Q10884 Wikidata entry if for some reason it is needed (4) please be aware that Wikidata quality, especially for translations is quite dubious (if someone tried this and deployed this - let me know so I can report systematically broken description into Polish) > today I see that a bot is deleting the wikidata, which is not > the same thing as "hide from the infobox" > to quote proposal "wikidata parameter in infoboxes on wiki pages would become inactive. Automatic edit removing them should obtain a separate bot approval (it is not granted by this proposal)." Bot edits limited to OSM Wiki are not handled by any policy, many people run smaller or larger bot edits without any approval whatsoever. In my case I propose them on Talk:Wiki and wait for some time. This specific edit is also trivial to do in reverse (copy simple entry from data item into infobox) in unlikely case of people changing their mind and wanting to display this tag in infobox. If someone things that bot policy for wiki with stronger requirements would be a good idea, feel free to design one. > what do we gain by breaking the link between > natural=tree and |wikidata=Q10884 ? > See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes#Rationale for rationale > compare osm's translation list with wikidata > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4723 > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q10884 > of course for some, it's even worse, for ex genus=* 30 <> 125 > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q310 > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q34740 > Using nearest Wikidata item translations for describing tag is not useful at all and often will result in highly confusing and misleading "translations". But if you really want, you can still do this and you are not affected by this edits. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?
Hello, a few months ago, the community unfortunately voted [|] to "remove alphanumeric code visible in infoboxes at OSM Wiki linking to Wikidata" because for some tags, the item described by the tag was not the same as the one described by the wikidata item (in my opinion it is better to only delete the erroneous links instead of hiding everything) today I see that a bot is deleting the wikidata, which is not the same thing as "hide from the infobox" therefore if I want to make an application that displays natural=tree genus species in the user's language, I don't have access to the translation base that is de facto wikidata (and I would have to do like many tools: ask people to waste their time to encode the same translation again) so it's the previous vote to hide a valid arg to remove it ? do we really want the community to waste its time remaking a wikidata-osm out of ego not to use wikidata.org when it describes the same concept? is it useful ? what do we gain by breaking the link between natural=tree and |wikidata=Q10884 ? compare osm's translation list with wikidata https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4723 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q10884 of course for some, it's even worse, for ex genus=* 30 <> 125 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q310 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q34740 it's already a sad waste to have to translate every tag for the wiki + iD + josm+ + ... + ... without this [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes Regards, Marc ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
