Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Jarek Piórkowski]

Hi all,

I have now made the edit at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Canadian_tagging_guidelines=revision=1907677=1898100
and I saw that Matthew has edited a few of the more prominent examples
already.

Thanks!

--Jarek

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 at 17:09, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> It sounds fine for me.
>
> On 2019-09-10 7:54 a.m., john whelan wrote:
>
> Looks good to me and if Matthew has cast his eye over it and not spotted 
> anything major then I think we can safely say Ottawa is happy with it.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 9:57 PM Pierre Béland via Talk-ca, 
>  wrote:
>>
>> Cela semble bien préciser, mais les collègues d'Ontario pourront mieux 
>> répondre.
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>> Envoyé à partir de Yahoo Courriel sur Android
>>
>> Le lun., sept. 9 2019 à 3:11 PM, Jarek Piórkowski
>>  a écrit :
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> (I responded via email at first, but realized one more thing, so
>> adding on and sending to talk-ca:)
>>
>> The proposed wiki addition does start with "In Ontario". However
>> thanks bringing this up, as I realized I forgot to account for parts
>> of Ontario where streets will be named in French - this change should
>> not apply to those.
>>
>> I am changing the suggested wording to:
>>
>> In parts of **Ontario** that primarily name streets in English,
>> street and road names containing initial "St." or "St" should only be
>> expanded to "Saint" when "Saint" is common usage for that street. To
>> be clear, this overrides the general rule
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
>> for "St." which does not stand for "street". As with other names in
>> OSM, factors you might want to consider when determining common usage
>> include spellings posted on street signs ("on the ground" rule),
>> spellings used in local media, GeoBase street name data, and spellings
>> used by official municipal sources including open data datasets. See
>> discussion on talk-ca [0].
>>
>> Would this wording be fine for Ottawa and other bilingual areas, or am
>> I missing a pitfall?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --Jarek
>>
>> On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 at 08:51, Pierre Béland  wrote:
>> >
>> > Marek
>> >
>> > Ces instructions ne s'appliquent pas à toutes les provinces. Il faudrait 
>> > donc indiquer sur la page wiki à quelles provinces elles s'appliquent
>> >
>> > Pierre
>> >
>> > Envoyé à partir de Yahoo Courriel sur Android
>> >
>> > Le lun., sept. 9 2019 à 2:51 AM, Jarek Piórkowski
>> >  a écrit :
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I'm following up on the thread about saints and lack thereof in street
>> > names from a couple of months ago (see archives [1] [2]).
>> >
>> > I would like to suggest the following wording added to Canadian
>> > tagging guidelines at
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Street_names
>> > :
>> >
>> >In Ontario, street and road names containing initial "St." or "St"
>> > should only be expanded to "Saint" when "Saint" is common usage for
>> > that street. To be clear, this overrides the general rule
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
>> > for "St." which does not stand for "street". As with other names in
>> > OSM, factors you might want to consider when determining common usage
>> > include spellings posted on street signs ("on the ground" rule),
>> > spellings used in local media, GeoBase street name data, and spellings
>> > used by official municipal sources including open data datasets. See
>> > discussion on talk-ca [0].
>> >
>> > where [0] would be a link to this message/thread archive. (Comments on
>> > the wording and suggestions appreciated!)
>> >
>> > Is anyone opposed to this change?
>> >
>> > I have attempted to advertise/announce this proposed change. This was:
>> > - posted in this mailing list in March/April of this year (some quoted
>> > below, see list archives for more discussion)
>> > - I posted a note https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1741334 in
>> > Toronto with a link to this thread (supportive responses from Kevo and
>> > DannyMcD)
>> > - on April 10, sent a message [2] with a link to the note to editors
>> > who were showing up as top editors on
>> > http://osmstats.neis-one.org/?item=countries=Canada
>> > (they aren't necessarily representative of the community, but it's
>> > really the closest we can reasonably do given our current tooling) [3]
>> > (no private message responses)
>> > - posted on OSM Canada Slack on 17 August
>> > https://osm-ca.slack.com/archives/CASP8UQNT/p1566053199044200
>> > (supportive responses from Matthew Darwin and Eric Geiler)
>> > - on August 27, sent a few more private messages to editors in top 50
>> > on the stats page who had done Ontario edits [4] (no private message
>> > responses)
>> >
>> > If you know of anyone else who might have a further opinion on this,
>> > please forward as possible.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > --Jarek
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Matthew Darwin]

Hi,

It sounds fine for me.

On 2019-09-10 7:54 a.m., john whelan wrote:
Looks good to me and if Matthew has cast his eye over it and not 
spotted anything major then I think we can safely say Ottawa is 
happy with it.


Cheerio John

On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 9:57 PM Pierre Béland via Talk-ca, 
mailto:talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:


Cela semble bien préciser, mais les collègues d'Ontario pourront
mieux répondre.

Pierre

Envoyé à partir de Yahoo Courriel sur Android



Le lun., sept. 9 2019 à 3:11 PM, Jarek Piórkowski
mailto:ja...@piorkowski.ca>> a écrit :
Hi Pierre,

(I responded via email at first, but realized one more thing, so
adding on and sending to talk-ca:)

The proposed wiki addition does start with "In Ontario". However
thanks bringing this up, as I realized I forgot to account
for parts
of Ontario where streets will be named in French - this
change should
not apply to those.

I am changing the suggested wording to:

    In parts of **Ontario** that primarily name streets in
English,
street and road names containing initial "St." or "St"
should only be
expanded to "Saint" when "Saint" is common usage for that
street. To
be clear, this overrides the general rule

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
for "St." which does not stand for "street". As with other
names in
OSM, factors you might want to consider when determining
common usage
include spellings posted on street signs ("on the ground" rule),
spellings used in local media, GeoBase street name data, and
spellings
used by official municipal sources including open data
datasets. See
discussion on talk-ca [0].

Would this wording be fine for Ottawa and other bilingual
areas, or am
I missing a pitfall?

Thanks,
--Jarek

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 at 08:51, Pierre Béland
mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr>> wrote:
>
> Marek
>
> Ces instructions ne s'appliquent pas à toutes les
provinces. Il faudrait donc indiquer sur la page wiki à
quelles provinces elles s'appliquent
>
> Pierre
>
> Envoyé à partir de Yahoo Courriel sur Android
>
> Le lun., sept. 9 2019 à 2:51 AM, Jarek Piórkowski
> mailto:ja...@piorkowski.ca>> a écrit :
> Hello,
>
> I'm following up on the thread about saints and lack
thereof in street
> names from a couple of months ago (see archives [1] [2]).
>
> I would like to suggest the following wording added to
Canadian
> tagging guidelines at
>

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Street_names
> :
>
>    In Ontario, street and road names containing initial
"St." or "St"
> should only be expanded to "Saint" when "Saint" is common
usage for
> that street. To be clear, this overrides the general rule
>

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
> for "St." which does not stand for "street". As with other
names in
> OSM, factors you might want to consider when determining
common usage
> include spellings posted on street signs ("on the ground"
rule),
> spellings used in local media, GeoBase street name data,
and spellings
> used by official municipal sources including open data
datasets. See
> discussion on talk-ca [0].
>
> where [0] would be a link to this message/thread archive.
(Comments on
> the wording and suggestions appreciated!)
>
> Is anyone opposed to this change?
>
> I have attempted to advertise/announce this proposed
change. This was:
> - posted in this mailing list in March/April of this year
(some quoted
> below, see list archives for more discussion)
> - I posted a note
https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1741334 in
> Toronto with a link to this thread (supportive responses
from Kevo and
> DannyMcD)
> - on April 10, sent a message [2] with a link to the note
to editors
> who were showing up as top editors on
> http://osmstats.neis-one.org/?item=countries=Canada
> (they aren't necessarily representative of the community,
but it's
> really the closest we can reasonably do given our current
tooling) [3]
> (no private message 

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[john whelan]

Looks good to me and if Matthew has cast his eye over it and not spotted
anything major then I think we can safely say Ottawa is happy with it.

Cheerio John

On Mon, Sep 9, 2019, 9:57 PM Pierre Béland via Talk-ca, <
talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Cela semble bien préciser, mais les collègues d'Ontario pourront mieux
> répondre.
>
> Pierre
>
> Envoyé à partir de Yahoo Courriel sur Android
> 
>
> Le lun., sept. 9 2019 à 3:11 PM, Jarek Piórkowski
>  a écrit :
> Hi Pierre,
>
> (I responded via email at first, but realized one more thing, so
> adding on and sending to talk-ca:)
>
> The proposed wiki addition does start with "In Ontario". However
> thanks bringing this up, as I realized I forgot to account for parts
> of Ontario where streets will be named in French - this change should
> not apply to those.
>
> I am changing the suggested wording to:
>
> In parts of **Ontario** that primarily name streets in English,
> street and road names containing initial "St." or "St" should only be
> expanded to "Saint" when "Saint" is common usage for that street. To
> be clear, this overrides the general rule
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
> for "St." which does not stand for "street". As with other names in
> OSM, factors you might want to consider when determining common usage
> include spellings posted on street signs ("on the ground" rule),
> spellings used in local media, GeoBase street name data, and spellings
> used by official municipal sources including open data datasets. See
> discussion on talk-ca [0].
>
> Would this wording be fine for Ottawa and other bilingual areas, or am
> I missing a pitfall?
>
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
>
> On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 at 08:51, Pierre Béland  wrote:
> >
> > Marek
> >
> > Ces instructions ne s'appliquent pas à toutes les provinces. Il faudrait
> donc indiquer sur la page wiki à quelles provinces elles s'appliquent
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> > Envoyé à partir de Yahoo Courriel sur Android
> >
> > Le lun., sept. 9 2019 à 2:51 AM, Jarek Piórkowski
> >  a écrit :
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm following up on the thread about saints and lack thereof in street
> > names from a couple of months ago (see archives [1] [2]).
> >
> > I would like to suggest the following wording added to Canadian
> > tagging guidelines at
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Street_names
> > :
> >
> >In Ontario, street and road names containing initial "St." or "St"
> > should only be expanded to "Saint" when "Saint" is common usage for
> > that street. To be clear, this overrides the general rule
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
> > for "St." which does not stand for "street". As with other names in
> > OSM, factors you might want to consider when determining common usage
> > include spellings posted on street signs ("on the ground" rule),
> > spellings used in local media, GeoBase street name data, and spellings
> > used by official municipal sources including open data datasets. See
> > discussion on talk-ca [0].
> >
> > where [0] would be a link to this message/thread archive. (Comments on
> > the wording and suggestions appreciated!)
> >
> > Is anyone opposed to this change?
> >
> > I have attempted to advertise/announce this proposed change. This was:
> > - posted in this mailing list in March/April of this year (some quoted
> > below, see list archives for more discussion)
> > - I posted a note https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1741334 in
> > Toronto with a link to this thread (supportive responses from Kevo and
> > DannyMcD)
> > - on April 10, sent a message [2] with a link to the note to editors
> > who were showing up as top editors on
> > http://osmstats.neis-one.org/?item=countries=Canada
> > (they aren't necessarily representative of the community, but it's
> > really the closest we can reasonably do given our current tooling) [3]
> > (no private message responses)
> > - posted on OSM Canada Slack on 17 August
> > https://osm-ca.slack.com/archives/CASP8UQNT/p1566053199044200
> > (supportive responses from Matthew Darwin and Eric Geiler)
> > - on August 27, sent a few more private messages to editors in top 50
> > on the stats page who had done Ontario edits [4] (no private message
> > responses)
> >
> > If you know of anyone else who might have a further opinion on this,
> > please forward as possible.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --Jarek
> >
> >
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Jarek Piórkowski]

Hi Pierre,

(I responded via email at first, but realized one more thing, so
adding on and sending to talk-ca:)

The proposed wiki addition does start with "In Ontario". However
thanks bringing this up, as I realized I forgot to account for parts
of Ontario where streets will be named in French - this change should
not apply to those.

I am changing the suggested wording to:

In parts of **Ontario** that primarily name streets in English,
street and road names containing initial "St." or "St" should only be
expanded to "Saint" when "Saint" is common usage for that street. To
be clear, this overrides the general rule
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
for "St." which does not stand for "street". As with other names in
OSM, factors you might want to consider when determining common usage
include spellings posted on street signs ("on the ground" rule),
spellings used in local media, GeoBase street name data, and spellings
used by official municipal sources including open data datasets. See
discussion on talk-ca [0].

Would this wording be fine for Ottawa and other bilingual areas, or am
I missing a pitfall?

Thanks,
--Jarek

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 at 08:51, Pierre Béland  wrote:
>
> Marek
>
> Ces instructions ne s'appliquent pas à toutes les provinces. Il faudrait donc 
> indiquer sur la page wiki à quelles provinces elles s'appliquent
>
> Pierre
>
> Envoyé à partir de Yahoo Courriel sur Android
>
> Le lun., sept. 9 2019 à 2:51 AM, Jarek Piórkowski
>  a écrit :
> Hello,
>
> I'm following up on the thread about saints and lack thereof in street
> names from a couple of months ago (see archives [1] [2]).
>
> I would like to suggest the following wording added to Canadian
> tagging guidelines at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Street_names
> :
>
> In Ontario, street and road names containing initial "St." or "St"
> should only be expanded to "Saint" when "Saint" is common usage for
> that street. To be clear, this overrides the general rule
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29
> for "St." which does not stand for "street". As with other names in
> OSM, factors you might want to consider when determining common usage
> include spellings posted on street signs ("on the ground" rule),
> spellings used in local media, GeoBase street name data, and spellings
> used by official municipal sources including open data datasets. See
> discussion on talk-ca [0].
>
> where [0] would be a link to this message/thread archive. (Comments on
> the wording and suggestions appreciated!)
>
> Is anyone opposed to this change?
>
> I have attempted to advertise/announce this proposed change. This was:
> - posted in this mailing list in March/April of this year (some quoted
> below, see list archives for more discussion)
> - I posted a note https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1741334 in
> Toronto with a link to this thread (supportive responses from Kevo and
> DannyMcD)
> - on April 10, sent a message [2] with a link to the note to editors
> who were showing up as top editors on
> http://osmstats.neis-one.org/?item=countries=Canada
> (they aren't necessarily representative of the community, but it's
> really the closest we can reasonably do given our current tooling) [3]
> (no private message responses)
> - posted on OSM Canada Slack on 17 August
> https://osm-ca.slack.com/archives/CASP8UQNT/p1566053199044200
> (supportive responses from Matthew Darwin and Eric Geiler)
> - on August 27, sent a few more private messages to editors in top 50
> on the stats page who had done Ontario edits [4] (no private message
> responses)
>
> If you know of anyone else who might have a further opinion on this,
> please forward as possible.
>
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
>
>

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Jarek Piórkowski]

ly
> not very charitable reading, under this argument we would respect
> local spelling differences like Canboro Road vs Canborough Road (name
> changes at municipality border), we live with corruptions of Steele's
> and St. Clare and so many "Queens" rather than "Queen's", we accept
> non-original anglicized spellings for "Etobicoke" or "Spadina" or for
> that matter "Ontario", but we do not accept where the name is posted
> as "St." and not "Saint". I am open to better explanations.
>
> Tristan wrote to three cities (thank you, much appreciated!) and
> states that "Names in Openstreetmap may only be abbreviated if the
> expanded version is incorrect.  Where either are acceptable, the Saint
> must be used." But the question is exactly whether the expanded
> versions are incorrect, and how should we or could we tell. In the
> case of St. Clair the local historian source suggests it is not
> correct as the street is apparently named after a person named "St.
> Clare" who was not a saint.
>
> In a town once ruled by the English I can believe that "St. George
> Street" is named after Saint George. But the English propensity to not
> pay too much attention to apostrophes causes problems. Is "St. Clarens
> Avenue" named after a saint, which one and how would we know? In Galt
> in Cambridge there is a street we currently have tagged "St. Andrews
> Street" (https://osm.org/way/650563356, signed "St. Andrews St" on
> OpenStreetCam) - is that: "Saint Andrews Street", properly "Saint
> Andrew's Street", or maybe "St Andrews Street" after the Scottish town
> and university which is always spelled "University of St Andrews"? If
> we have a "St. Johns" is that a typo, a corruption of Saint John or a
> reference to St Johns, London, England?
>
> Should we try to research the history of each name? Seems easier to go
> with the names posted on the signs (on the ground verifiability). And
> while I've not seen an argument that a posted "Ave" isn't actually
> short for "Avenue", we do have counterexamples for "St." now. Should
> we have it on a per-city basis, with Toronto as "St."?
>
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
>
> [1] we do have signs on one end of the street spelled differently than 
> others...
>
> [2] centrelines
> https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/data-research-maps/open-data/open-data-catalogue/locations-and-mapping/#e4ec3384-056f-aa59-70f7-9ad7706f31a3
> also addresses 
> https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/data-research-maps/open-data/open-data-catalogue/locations-and-mapping/#f71a13c4-fb51-6116-57b7-1f51a8190585
>
> [3] https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/9783-city-wide_index.pdf
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 22:41, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> >
> > In Ottawa, there were (and still are) cases where the signs do not match 
> > the "official" name in the City of Ottawa database.  Local mappers will 
> > consider the signs as authoritative according to OSM rules (what you see on 
> > the ground wins).
> >
> > When I come across this situation I contact the City of Ottawa and ask.  I 
> > had a case where there were 3 different variations on the signs for a 
> > single street, none of which the matched the city database. Most times 
> > ended up with the case that the sign on the street needing to be changed.  
> > Apparently the folks in the sign shop recognize my name now...
> >
> > Also I'm waiting for the MTO to update the highway signs to have the 
> > correct spelling in a few cases.
> >
> >
> > On 2019-03-19 4:32 p.m., john whelan wrote:
> >
> > Go back to Ottawa and from the discussion we had there in Ontario it is the 
> > municipality that is the authority.
> >
> > From memory years ago when OSM was mapped by cyclists taking photos of 
> > street names what was on the sign post was deemed correct.
> >
> > Unfortunately locally one street had three different signs that all 
> > differed slightly.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 4:19 PM Tristan Anderson, 
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> When in doubt, ask.
> >>
> >> I posed this question to three Ontario municipalities.  Red Lake has told 
> >> me either are acceptable, as has Amherstburg.  However, this is the 
> >> response I got after emailing 3...@toronto.ca
> >>
> >> Dear Tristan:
> >>
> >> Street names displayed on signs and outlined in official documents should 
> >> match 

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[john whelan]

Go back to Ottawa and from the discussion we had there in Ontario it is the
municipality that is the authority.

>From memory years ago when OSM was mapped by cyclists taking photos of
street names what was on the sign post was deemed correct.

Unfortunately locally one street had three different signs that all
differed slightly.

Cheerio John

On Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 4:19 PM Tristan Anderson, 
wrote:

> When in doubt, ask.
>
> I posed this question to three Ontario municipalities.  Red Lake has told
> me either are acceptable, as has Amherstburg.  However, this is the
> response I got after emailing 3...@toronto.ca
>
> Dear Tristan:
>
> Street names displayed on signs and outlined in official documents should
> match the authorized spelling of the road name. For street names beginning
> with Saint, the abbreviated spelling is correct.
>
> Best regards,
>
> John House
> Supervisor, Land & Property Surveys
> Engineering Support Services
> Engineering & Construction Services
> City of Toronto
>
> Names in Openstreetmap may only be abbreviated if the expanded version is
> incorrect.  Where either are acceptable, the Saint must be used.  In
> general, an abbreviation in an official document does not imply that the
> expanded version is incorrect; it may just be used for convenience.  I'm
> still not 100% convinced that we should be using St even in Toronto (note
> that John admits to it being an "abbreviated spelling") but I just wanted
> to throw his response out there.
>
> Tristan
>
>
>
> From: Nate Wessel 
> Sent: March 15, 2019 1:42 PM
> To: Jarek Piórkowski
> Cc: talk-ca
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario
>
>
> Interesting!
>
>
> I didn't mean to imply that etymology should be decisive, but that linking
> the name to the history of some beatified person would help explain the
> origin of the 'St'... In this case, seemingly supporting the abbreviation,
> but also referencing an actual 'saint' or two at the same time.
>
>
> I like Danny's suggestion of the pronunciation tag. That seems like the
> most elegant solution if anyone knows IPA. I've always wanted to learn it
> actually but haven't yet had a good enough reason.
>
>
> Nate Wessel
> Jack of all trades, Master of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban Planning
> NateWessel.com
>
>
> On 3/15/19 1:18 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
>
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 13:02, Nate Wessel  wrote:
>
> Don't forget about the various alternative naming tags like alt_name=*,
> short_name=*, loc_name=*, and also name:etymology=* to make things
> absolutely clear.
>
> Having either spelling in one of these alternatives as appropriate would
> likely satisfy any dissenters and make both the full and abbreviated name
> searchable.
>
> Certainly, but my message is to suggest that "St. Clair Avenue West"
> _is_ the full name. We could set up an "expanded name" tag I suppose?
>
> Etymology wise, Wikipedia, citing (as far as I can tell) local
> historians, suggests that St. Clair Avenue is named after Augustine
> St. Clare, a character in Uncle Tom's Cabin, and the book spells the
> last name "St. Clare", never expanded to "Saint".
>
> In any case, suggesting etymology as being decisive for names seems to
> me problematic in many ways, especially in Canada where we've
> adopted/mangled many names and phrases from other languages.
>
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Nate Wessel]

Interesting!

I didn't mean to imply that etymology should be decisive, but that 
linking the name to the history of some beatified person would help 
explain the origin of the 'St'... In this case, seemingly supporting the 
abbreviation, but also referencing an actual 'saint' or two at the same 
time.


I like Danny's suggestion of the pronunciation tag. That seems like the 
most elegant solution if anyone knows IPA. I've always wanted to learn 
it actually but haven't yet had a good enough reason.


Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, Master of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban Planning
NateWessel.com 

On 3/15/19 1:18 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 13:02, Nate Wessel  wrote:

Don't forget about the various alternative naming tags like alt_name=*, 
short_name=*, loc_name=*, and also name:etymology=* to make things absolutely 
clear.

Having either spelling in one of these alternatives as appropriate would likely 
satisfy any dissenters and make both the full and abbreviated name searchable.

Certainly, but my message is to suggest that "St. Clair Avenue West"
_is_ the full name. We could set up an "expanded name" tag I suppose?

Etymology wise, Wikipedia, citing (as far as I can tell) local
historians, suggests that St. Clair Avenue is named after Augustine
St. Clare, a character in Uncle Tom's Cabin, and the book spells the
last name "St. Clare", never expanded to "Saint".

In any case, suggesting etymology as being decisive for names seems to
me problematic in many ways, especially in Canada where we've
adopted/mangled many names and phrases from other languages.

Thanks,
--Jarek
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[john whelan]

I'm of the opinion that what the city says goes.

We used that in Ottawa with things such as rue Slater rather than Rue
Slater which I understand is more normal in Quebec.

Cheerio John

On Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 1:19 PM Jarek Piórkowski,  wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 13:02, Nate Wessel  wrote:
> > Don't forget about the various alternative naming tags like alt_name=*,
> short_name=*, loc_name=*, and also name:etymology=* to make things
> absolutely clear.
> >
> > Having either spelling in one of these alternatives as appropriate would
> likely satisfy any dissenters and make both the full and abbreviated name
> searchable.
>
> Certainly, but my message is to suggest that "St. Clair Avenue West"
> _is_ the full name. We could set up an "expanded name" tag I suppose?
>
> Etymology wise, Wikipedia, citing (as far as I can tell) local
> historians, suggests that St. Clair Avenue is named after Augustine
> St. Clare, a character in Uncle Tom's Cabin, and the book spells the
> last name "St. Clare", never expanded to "Saint".
>
> In any case, suggesting etymology as being decisive for names seems to
> me problematic in many ways, especially in Canada where we've
> adopted/mangled many names and phrases from other languages.
>
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 13:02, Nate Wessel  wrote:
> Don't forget about the various alternative naming tags like alt_name=*, 
> short_name=*, loc_name=*, and also name:etymology=* to make things absolutely 
> clear.
>
> Having either spelling in one of these alternatives as appropriate would 
> likely satisfy any dissenters and make both the full and abbreviated name 
> searchable.

Certainly, but my message is to suggest that "St. Clair Avenue West"
_is_ the full name. We could set up an "expanded name" tag I suppose?

Etymology wise, Wikipedia, citing (as far as I can tell) local
historians, suggests that St. Clair Avenue is named after Augustine
St. Clare, a character in Uncle Tom's Cabin, and the book spells the
last name "St. Clare", never expanded to "Saint".

In any case, suggesting etymology as being decisive for names seems to
me problematic in many ways, especially in Canada where we've
adopted/mangled many names and phrases from other languages.

Thanks,
--Jarek

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/03/2019 16:58, Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca wrote:
The word is definitely Saint. St is a contraction and neither proper 
English or French.


I can't comment about Canadian English, but "St" in a placename in 
British English is perfectly OK - St Albans is correct; "Saint Albans" 
is not.


Not that this has any relevant to Canadian placenames of course 
(especially those with a French derivation - "Saint-Denis" is of course 
correct there).


Best Regards,

Andy



___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Danny McDonald]

I agree with Jarek, St. should generally not be expanded for English
Canadian street names.  The proper spelling is St. (or St) even if the
pronunciation is Saint.  name:pronunciation (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:pronunciation) is a tag that
can capture the pronunciation, if desired.

In Quebec, I believe it is different, and St often is expanded.
DannyMcD
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Kevin Farrugia]

No, I'm referring to the official records of street names held by
municipalities. In many cases, at least in newer developments, they seem to
be abbreviated. If it's officially short form then it would be incorrect to
say it's Saint.

---
Kevin Farrugia

On Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 1:08 PM Martin Chalifoux 
wrote:

> I think the osm database should use proper words. Abbreviating is a
> rendering issue and many rendering engines can do that. Space constraints
> on signage dictate the use of abbreviations for those.
>
>
>
> On Mar 15, 2019, at 12:50, Kevin Farrugia  wrote:
>
> Hi Jarek,
>
> I agree that of the sign has a short form for saint then it should be that
> way on the map too, as the sign text comes from the official records of
> street names.
>
> I think St. Is better with a period as it makes it less ambiguous to it
> being an abbreviation and it may help screen readers or spoken directions
> in maps provide the right information.
>
> ---
> Kevin F
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 12:44 PM Jarek Piórkowski 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A couple of months back we established a consensus [1] that "St." in
>> Canadian English city names should not be expanded.
>>
>> I have been thinking of having the same for street names, and would
>> like to ask people's opinions.
>>
>> My main motivation is St. Clair Avenue in Toronto. Every city source I
>> could find and every street sign I saw in Mapillary says "St. Clair"
>> or "St Clair". The TTC stations and routes are consistently "St
>> Clair". The City uses "St. Clair Avenue West" in official documents
>> like [2]. Geobase in Toronto has "St Clair Avenue West" , "St Clarens
>> Avenue", and "St Helens Avenue". Currently most of the street is named
>> "Saint Clair Avenue West/East" in OpenStreetMap, but this is changed
>> for some parts of the road every now and then.
>>
>> As a local mapper I would say that "St. Clair Avenue West" is the full
>> name. Unlike with "Av", "Ave", "W", the "St" in "St Clair" is IMO not
>> an abbreviation.
>>
>> Across the Golden Horseshoe names starting with "St. " or "St " seem
>> to be a bit more common [3] than "Saint" [4], I gather the
>> acronym-expanders have not looked as much outside of Toronto.
>>
>> Would we have Ontario community consensus for a statement along the lines
>> of:
>> "Where "St." or "St" is normally used in the full street name, it
>> should not be expanded to "Saint" even if pronounced so"?
>>
>> (I don't know what the naming conventions are in other provinces, so I
>> focus on Ontario for now. Apologies for being Ontario-centric, but I
>> don't know of a better venue that is Ontario-specific. I'll post links
>> to this message in wiki talk pages for Ontario, WikiProject_Canada,
>> and Canadian_tagging_guidelines.)
>>
>> As part of my checks I also looked at London UK, which I gather might
>> be the most-intensively-mapped English-speaking city. (Recommendations
>> for better-mapped English-speaking cities welcome). Searching for
>> "St." in road names [5], it has street names for bigger streets like
>> "St. John Street" and "St. Pancras Way"; [6] has name="St. Paul's
>> Road" + not:name="Saint Paul's Road" and has had so for 5 years.
>> Compare with searching for "Saint" [7] which also has some hits,
>> suggesting that both can be valid depending on what is signed and
>> used. (Or maybe it's just inconsistent.)
>>
>> [1]
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Municipality_Names
>> [2]
>> https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-92339.pdf
>> [3] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1M
>> [4] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1P
>> [5] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPh
>> [6] https://osm.org/way/230843467
>> [7] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPi
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --Jarek
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca]

I think the osm database should use proper words. Abbreviating is a rendering 
issue and many rendering engines can do that. Space constraints on signage 
dictate the use of abbreviations for those. 



> On Mar 15, 2019, at 12:50, Kevin Farrugia  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jarek,
> 
> I agree that of the sign has a short form for saint then it should be that 
> way on the map too, as the sign text comes from the official records of 
> street names. 
> 
> I think St. Is better with a period as it makes it less ambiguous to it being 
> an abbreviation and it may help screen readers or spoken directions in maps 
> provide the right information.
> 
> ---
> Kevin F
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 12:44 PM Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> A couple of months back we established a consensus [1] that "St." in
>> Canadian English city names should not be expanded.
>> 
>> I have been thinking of having the same for street names, and would
>> like to ask people's opinions.
>> 
>> My main motivation is St. Clair Avenue in Toronto. Every city source I
>> could find and every street sign I saw in Mapillary says "St. Clair"
>> or "St Clair". The TTC stations and routes are consistently "St
>> Clair". The City uses "St. Clair Avenue West" in official documents
>> like [2]. Geobase in Toronto has "St Clair Avenue West" , "St Clarens
>> Avenue", and "St Helens Avenue". Currently most of the street is named
>> "Saint Clair Avenue West/East" in OpenStreetMap, but this is changed
>> for some parts of the road every now and then.
>> 
>> As a local mapper I would say that "St. Clair Avenue West" is the full
>> name. Unlike with "Av", "Ave", "W", the "St" in "St Clair" is IMO not
>> an abbreviation.
>> 
>> Across the Golden Horseshoe names starting with "St. " or "St " seem
>> to be a bit more common [3] than "Saint" [4], I gather the
>> acronym-expanders have not looked as much outside of Toronto.
>> 
>> Would we have Ontario community consensus for a statement along the lines of:
>> "Where "St." or "St" is normally used in the full street name, it
>> should not be expanded to "Saint" even if pronounced so"?
>> 
>> (I don't know what the naming conventions are in other provinces, so I
>> focus on Ontario for now. Apologies for being Ontario-centric, but I
>> don't know of a better venue that is Ontario-specific. I'll post links
>> to this message in wiki talk pages for Ontario, WikiProject_Canada,
>> and Canadian_tagging_guidelines.)
>> 
>> As part of my checks I also looked at London UK, which I gather might
>> be the most-intensively-mapped English-speaking city. (Recommendations
>> for better-mapped English-speaking cities welcome). Searching for
>> "St." in road names [5], it has street names for bigger streets like
>> "St. John Street" and "St. Pancras Way"; [6] has name="St. Paul's
>> Road" + not:name="Saint Paul's Road" and has had so for 5 years.
>> Compare with searching for "Saint" [7] which also has some hits,
>> suggesting that both can be valid depending on what is signed and
>> used. (Or maybe it's just inconsistent.)
>> 
>> [1] 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Municipality_Names
>> [2] https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-92339.pdf
>> [3] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1M
>> [4] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1P
>> [5] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPh
>> [6] https://osm.org/way/230843467
>> [7] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPi
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> --Jarek
>> 
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Kevin Farrugia]

However, the street name is legally "St." in almost all cases, so saint is
wrong.

---
Kevin Farrugia

On Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 1:00 PM Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca <
talk-ca@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> The word is definitely Saint. St is a contraction and neither proper
> English or French. It has the same Latin roots as sanctification and
> similar words.
>
> Similarly Av is a contraction for Avenue and not a word.
>
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbreviation
>
>
>
> On Mar 15, 2019, at 12:42, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> A couple of months back we established a consensus [1] that "St." in
> Canadian English city names should not be expanded.
>
> I have been thinking of having the same for street names, and would
> like to ask people's opinions.
>
> My main motivation is St. Clair Avenue in Toronto. Every city source I
> could find and every street sign I saw in Mapillary says "St. Clair"
> or "St Clair". The TTC stations and routes are consistently "St
> Clair". The City uses "St. Clair Avenue West" in official documents
> like [2]. Geobase in Toronto has "St Clair Avenue West" , "St Clarens
> Avenue", and "St Helens Avenue". Currently most of the street is named
> "Saint Clair Avenue West/East" in OpenStreetMap, but this is changed
> for some parts of the road every now and then.
>
> As a local mapper I would say that "St. Clair Avenue West" is the full
> name. Unlike with "Av", "Ave", "W", the "St" in "St Clair" is IMO not
> an abbreviation.
>
> Across the Golden Horseshoe names starting with "St. " or "St " seem
> to be a bit more common [3] than "Saint" [4], I gather the
> acronym-expanders have not looked as much outside of Toronto.
>
> Would we have Ontario community consensus for a statement along the lines
> of:
> "Where "St." or "St" is normally used in the full street name, it
> should not be expanded to "Saint" even if pronounced so"?
>
> (I don't know what the naming conventions are in other provinces, so I
> focus on Ontario for now. Apologies for being Ontario-centric, but I
> don't know of a better venue that is Ontario-specific. I'll post links
> to this message in wiki talk pages for Ontario, WikiProject_Canada,
> and Canadian_tagging_guidelines.)
>
> As part of my checks I also looked at London UK, which I gather might
> be the most-intensively-mapped English-speaking city. (Recommendations
> for better-mapped English-speaking cities welcome). Searching for
> "St." in road names [5], it has street names for bigger streets like
> "St. John Street" and "St. Pancras Way"; [6] has name="St. Paul's
> Road" + not:name="Saint Paul's Road" and has had so for 5 years.
> Compare with searching for "Saint" [7] which also has some hits,
> suggesting that both can be valid depending on what is signed and
> used. (Or maybe it's just inconsistent.)
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Municipality_Names
> [2]
> https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-92339.pdf
> [3] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1M
> [4] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1P
> [5] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPh
> [6] https://osm.org/way/230843467
> [7] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPi
>
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Nate Wessel]

Don't forget about the various alternative naming tags like alt_name=* 
, short_name=* 
, loc_name=*, and also 
name:etymology=* 
 to make things 
absolutely clear.


Having either spelling in one of these alternatives as appropriate would 
likely satisfy any dissenters and make both the full and abbreviated 
name searchable.


Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, Master of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban Planning
NateWessel.com 

On 3/15/19 12:58 PM, Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca wrote:
The word is definitely Saint. St is a contraction and neither proper 
English or French. It has the same Latin roots as sanctification and 
similar words.


Similarly Av is a contraction for Avenue and not a word.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbreviation



On Mar 15, 2019, at 12:42, Jarek Piórkowski > wrote:



Hi all,

A couple of months back we established a consensus [1] that "St." in
Canadian English city names should not be expanded.

I have been thinking of having the same for street names, and would
like to ask people's opinions.

My main motivation is St. Clair Avenue in Toronto. Every city source I
could find and every street sign I saw in Mapillary says "St. Clair"
or "St Clair". The TTC stations and routes are consistently "St
Clair". The City uses "St. Clair Avenue West" in official documents
like [2]. Geobase in Toronto has "St Clair Avenue West" , "St Clarens
Avenue", and "St Helens Avenue". Currently most of the street is named
"Saint Clair Avenue West/East" in OpenStreetMap, but this is changed
for some parts of the road every now and then.

As a local mapper I would say that "St. Clair Avenue West" is the full
name. Unlike with "Av", "Ave", "W", the "St" in "St Clair" is IMO not
an abbreviation.

Across the Golden Horseshoe names starting with "St. " or "St " seem
to be a bit more common [3] than "Saint" [4], I gather the
acronym-expanders have not looked as much outside of Toronto.

Would we have Ontario community consensus for a statement along the 
lines of:

"Where "St." or "St" is normally used in the full street name, it
should not be expanded to "Saint" even if pronounced so"?

(I don't know what the naming conventions are in other provinces, so I
focus on Ontario for now. Apologies for being Ontario-centric, but I
don't know of a better venue that is Ontario-specific. I'll post links
to this message in wiki talk pages for Ontario, WikiProject_Canada,
and Canadian_tagging_guidelines.)

As part of my checks I also looked at London UK, which I gather might
be the most-intensively-mapped English-speaking city. (Recommendations
for better-mapped English-speaking cities welcome). Searching for
"St." in road names [5], it has street names for bigger streets like
"St. John Street" and "St. Pancras Way"; [6] has name="St. Paul's
Road" + not:name="Saint Paul's Road" and has had so for 5 years.
Compare with searching for "Saint" [7] which also has some hits,
suggesting that both can be valid depending on what is signed and
used. (Or maybe it's just inconsistent.)

[1] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Municipality_Names
[2] 
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-92339.pdf

[3] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1M
[4] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1P
[5] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPh
[6] https://osm.org/way/230843467
[7] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPi

Thanks,
--Jarek

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca


___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca]

The word is definitely Saint. St is a contraction and neither proper English or 
French. It has the same Latin roots as sanctification and similar words. 

Similarly Av is a contraction for Avenue and not a word. 


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbreviation



> On Mar 15, 2019, at 12:42, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> A couple of months back we established a consensus [1] that "St." in
> Canadian English city names should not be expanded.
> 
> I have been thinking of having the same for street names, and would
> like to ask people's opinions.
> 
> My main motivation is St. Clair Avenue in Toronto. Every city source I
> could find and every street sign I saw in Mapillary says "St. Clair"
> or "St Clair". The TTC stations and routes are consistently "St
> Clair". The City uses "St. Clair Avenue West" in official documents
> like [2]. Geobase in Toronto has "St Clair Avenue West" , "St Clarens
> Avenue", and "St Helens Avenue". Currently most of the street is named
> "Saint Clair Avenue West/East" in OpenStreetMap, but this is changed
> for some parts of the road every now and then.
> 
> As a local mapper I would say that "St. Clair Avenue West" is the full
> name. Unlike with "Av", "Ave", "W", the "St" in "St Clair" is IMO not
> an abbreviation.
> 
> Across the Golden Horseshoe names starting with "St. " or "St " seem
> to be a bit more common [3] than "Saint" [4], I gather the
> acronym-expanders have not looked as much outside of Toronto.
> 
> Would we have Ontario community consensus for a statement along the lines of:
> "Where "St." or "St" is normally used in the full street name, it
> should not be expanded to "Saint" even if pronounced so"?
> 
> (I don't know what the naming conventions are in other provinces, so I
> focus on Ontario for now. Apologies for being Ontario-centric, but I
> don't know of a better venue that is Ontario-specific. I'll post links
> to this message in wiki talk pages for Ontario, WikiProject_Canada,
> and Canadian_tagging_guidelines.)
> 
> As part of my checks I also looked at London UK, which I gather might
> be the most-intensively-mapped English-speaking city. (Recommendations
> for better-mapped English-speaking cities welcome). Searching for
> "St." in road names [5], it has street names for bigger streets like
> "St. John Street" and "St. Pancras Way"; [6] has name="St. Paul's
> Road" + not:name="Saint Paul's Road" and has had so for 5 years.
> Compare with searching for "Saint" [7] which also has some hits,
> suggesting that both can be valid depending on what is signed and
> used. (Or maybe it's just inconsistent.)
> 
> [1] 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Municipality_Names
> [2] https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-92339.pdf
> [3] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1M
> [4] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1P
> [5] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPh
> [6] https://osm.org/way/230843467
> [7] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPi
> 
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
> 
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Kevin Farrugia]

Hi Jarek,

I agree that of the sign has a short form for saint then it should be that
way on the map too, as the sign text comes from the official records of
street names.

I think St. Is better with a period as it makes it less ambiguous to it
being an abbreviation and it may help screen readers or spoken directions
in maps provide the right information.

---
Kevin F


On Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 12:44 PM Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> A couple of months back we established a consensus [1] that "St." in
> Canadian English city names should not be expanded.
>
> I have been thinking of having the same for street names, and would
> like to ask people's opinions.
>
> My main motivation is St. Clair Avenue in Toronto. Every city source I
> could find and every street sign I saw in Mapillary says "St. Clair"
> or "St Clair". The TTC stations and routes are consistently "St
> Clair". The City uses "St. Clair Avenue West" in official documents
> like [2]. Geobase in Toronto has "St Clair Avenue West" , "St Clarens
> Avenue", and "St Helens Avenue". Currently most of the street is named
> "Saint Clair Avenue West/East" in OpenStreetMap, but this is changed
> for some parts of the road every now and then.
>
> As a local mapper I would say that "St. Clair Avenue West" is the full
> name. Unlike with "Av", "Ave", "W", the "St" in "St Clair" is IMO not
> an abbreviation.
>
> Across the Golden Horseshoe names starting with "St. " or "St " seem
> to be a bit more common [3] than "Saint" [4], I gather the
> acronym-expanders have not looked as much outside of Toronto.
>
> Would we have Ontario community consensus for a statement along the lines
> of:
> "Where "St." or "St" is normally used in the full street name, it
> should not be expanded to "Saint" even if pronounced so"?
>
> (I don't know what the naming conventions are in other provinces, so I
> focus on Ontario for now. Apologies for being Ontario-centric, but I
> don't know of a better venue that is Ontario-specific. I'll post links
> to this message in wiki talk pages for Ontario, WikiProject_Canada,
> and Canadian_tagging_guidelines.)
>
> As part of my checks I also looked at London UK, which I gather might
> be the most-intensively-mapped English-speaking city. (Recommendations
> for better-mapped English-speaking cities welcome). Searching for
> "St." in road names [5], it has street names for bigger streets like
> "St. John Street" and "St. Pancras Way"; [6] has name="St. Paul's
> Road" + not:name="Saint Paul's Road" and has had so for 5 years.
> Compare with searching for "Saint" [7] which also has some hits,
> suggesting that both can be valid depending on what is signed and
> used. (Or maybe it's just inconsistent.)
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Municipality_Names
> [2]
> https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-92339.pdf
> [3] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1M
> [4] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1P
> [5] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPh
> [6] https://osm.org/way/230843467
> [7] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPi
>
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

[Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Jarek Piórkowski]

Hi all,

A couple of months back we established a consensus [1] that "St." in
Canadian English city names should not be expanded.

I have been thinking of having the same for street names, and would
like to ask people's opinions.

My main motivation is St. Clair Avenue in Toronto. Every city source I
could find and every street sign I saw in Mapillary says "St. Clair"
or "St Clair". The TTC stations and routes are consistently "St
Clair". The City uses "St. Clair Avenue West" in official documents
like [2]. Geobase in Toronto has "St Clair Avenue West" , "St Clarens
Avenue", and "St Helens Avenue". Currently most of the street is named
"Saint Clair Avenue West/East" in OpenStreetMap, but this is changed
for some parts of the road every now and then.

As a local mapper I would say that "St. Clair Avenue West" is the full
name. Unlike with "Av", "Ave", "W", the "St" in "St Clair" is IMO not
an abbreviation.

Across the Golden Horseshoe names starting with "St. " or "St " seem
to be a bit more common [3] than "Saint" [4], I gather the
acronym-expanders have not looked as much outside of Toronto.

Would we have Ontario community consensus for a statement along the lines of:
"Where "St." or "St" is normally used in the full street name, it
should not be expanded to "Saint" even if pronounced so"?

(I don't know what the naming conventions are in other provinces, so I
focus on Ontario for now. Apologies for being Ontario-centric, but I
don't know of a better venue that is Ontario-specific. I'll post links
to this message in wiki talk pages for Ontario, WikiProject_Canada,
and Canadian_tagging_guidelines.)

As part of my checks I also looked at London UK, which I gather might
be the most-intensively-mapped English-speaking city. (Recommendations
for better-mapped English-speaking cities welcome). Searching for
"St." in road names [5], it has street names for bigger streets like
"St. John Street" and "St. Pancras Way"; [6] has name="St. Paul's
Road" + not:name="Saint Paul's Road" and has had so for 5 years.
Compare with searching for "Saint" [7] which also has some hits,
suggesting that both can be valid depending on what is signed and
used. (Or maybe it's just inconsistent.)

[1] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Municipality_Names
[2] https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-92339.pdf
[3] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1M
[4] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1P
[5] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPh
[6] https://osm.org/way/230843467
[7] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPi

Thanks,
--Jarek

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca