Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
I have now changed this from "driveway" to "service road" with access for motor vehicles as "destination", i.e. for access to properties only. I don't think it can be "private" because there are two properties along there, Noverton Cottage and Noverton Farm. I have also added the gate at the public road. https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.28186/-2.42748 Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
We as a UK community, certainly from the countryside mapping point of view tend to be walkers and cyclists. We see a track, we know its a track because the tagging language of OSM is after all our native language. Take for example http://trigpoint.myzen.co.uk/photodump/20201212_150029.jpg This is https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/718122173/history It was originally mapped as a track, which is correct IMHO, I would not drive my car with low profile tyres here although I have both ridden my town and trail bike and walked here. Mapping as these as tracks has served us as a community well over the years. We have no use-case for them other than as walkers/cyclists and our allies, the horse riders. Recently paid mappers have started changing many of these tracks to service roads, because the wiki says that tracks are for agricultural and forestry use and as these tracks lead to farms and other properties they cannot be tracks I suspect one of the issues we are seeing goes back to the first version of the highway=track wiki page which is where the Agriculture/Forestry restriction appeared, although until these edits began to appear I had never had cause to read the wiki to find out what a track is, or to challenge the restrictive definition. My 10p worth. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
Hello Martin/Nick, Perhaps the combination of highway, surface and designation will cover many of these use-cases? e.g. a service road that looks like a track but is a service road, and has bridleway rights, could be tagged as: highway=service; surface=unpaved; designation=public_bridleway For rendering, if one rendered tracks or unpaved service roads as dashed black lines, and designations as coloured lines, you could render the designation layer as a coloured transparent line above the track/service road layer. This is what I do in my own projects. Nick From: Martin Wynne Sent: 13 December 2020 14:01 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track On 13/12/2020 13:45, Nick wrote: > what do people think of Overlapping ways i.e. one is a road and > a duplicate is a bridleway? Not elegant and something I would not > normally suggest but... Hi Nick, When I've tried that in the past I've been jumped on for breaking a fundamental rule of OSM that one feature should have only one entry in the database. Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 13/12/2020 13:45, Nick wrote: what do people think of Overlapping ways i.e. one is a road and a duplicate is a bridleway? Not elegant and something I would not normally suggest but... Hi Nick, When I've tried that in the past I've been jumped on for breaking a fundamental rule of OSM that one feature should have only one entry in the database. Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
I will throw something in the pot, apart from using the "Cycle map" solution what do people think of Overlapping ways i.e. one is a road and a duplicate is a bridleway? Not elegant and something I would not normally suggest but... On 13/12/2020 13:00, Martin Wynne wrote: As the OP on this, all I can say is that in this part of the world, which includes that farm, that roadway would be called a "farm drive" (not "driveway") with double gates and a nameboard where it leaves the public road. If you referred to the "track leading to the farm" the farmer might take offence after laying and rolling hardcore along it to make it suitable for all vehicles. A "track" is a narrow muddy lane between fields, and a farm at the end of one would typically be an old-time tumbledown affair, not one ready to receive delivery vans from Amazon. However, my post was not about the naming, but about the rendering on the standard OSM map. Where at zoom level 15 driveways are not rendered, but lower-grade tracks and bridleways are. It doesn't make sense to a user of that map, although I can see the intended logic behind it. The simplest solution would to remove the driveway tag and simply leave it as "service road". But that then causes it to be rendered on the standard map at the same width and colour as a minor public road, which is equally confusing to a map user. However, I notice that the entry gates have not been mapped, so adding those to a basic service road may be the best solution, and I will do that. thanks, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
As the OP on this, all I can say is that in this part of the world, which includes that farm, that roadway would be called a "farm drive" (not "driveway") with double gates and a nameboard where it leaves the public road. If you referred to the "track leading to the farm" the farmer might take offence after laying and rolling hardcore along it to make it suitable for all vehicles. A "track" is a narrow muddy lane between fields, and a farm at the end of one would typically be an old-time tumbledown affair, not one ready to receive delivery vans from Amazon. However, my post was not about the naming, but about the rendering on the standard OSM map. Where at zoom level 15 driveways are not rendered, but lower-grade tracks and bridleways are. It doesn't make sense to a user of that map, although I can see the intended logic behind it. The simplest solution would to remove the driveway tag and simply leave it as "service road". But that then causes it to be rendered on the standard map at the same width and colour as a minor public road, which is equally confusing to a map user. However, I notice that the entry gates have not been mapped, so adding those to a basic service road may be the best solution, and I will do that. thanks, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 13/12/2020 11:30, ael via Talk-GB wrote: On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 10:44:24AM +, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote: IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else. FWIIW, I would very definitely tag that as a service road. Driveway seems quite inappropriate. Based on what I've seen, I'd probably tag the whole thing as a track with appropriate surface tags :) , but I can think of plenty of unequivacal driveways that have public rights of way along them. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/529287631 is pretty typical, https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/119h finds lots more. Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
OSMAND has recently had some very positive comments about walking on an unrelated (to OSM) forum I use. It also doesn't appear to render on the basis of whether there is a service=driveway tag at the moment. In the field, as a walker, given you can download the maps, it is what I would consider suggesting someone try if they asked me rather than the main OSM website. I've had the debate about the use of track/service some time ago. I go the impression that highway=track was initially used based on the surface rather than the "function". I now try and tag on the basis of what I think is the function. So if it is the highway to an isolated residence or residences (farmyards that have been sold off for housing are quite often multiple residences) or a farmyard (which will include a residence) I would use highway=service and service=driveway. I would add a surface tag for the surface. I might even add a tracktype tag as in reality this is just another descriptor for a surface. If the highway is to farm buildings only (you get isolated barn/s in fields) or into fields I would use highway=track. One advantage of having service=driveway rendered differently on the main OSM website is that you can use it to QC your use of this tag! Dudley From: ael via Talk-GB Sent: 13 December 2020 11:41 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 09:11:32PM +, Martin Wynne wrote: > On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote: > > > What I'm wondering is how the typical recreational country walker would find > that map, or get it on their mobile phone app in place of the awful Google > maps? It's a lot of work to create if no-one ever uses it? Just to mention that I use navit on my satnavs, and that has a good "POI" feature which would show benches in the vicinity. I understand that there is a Android version, so presumably it works on those types of smartphone. https://github.com/navit-gps & https://www.navit-project.org/ etc. ael ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
In 1998 I did a long > distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary > footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme > Valley. It was very nice *but* the footpaths were in an appaling state of > disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble > through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I > seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly > badly-maintained footpaths. > > As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to > illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, > which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I > still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but... > > Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since.. > > Nick > > > > > -- > > *From:* Martin Wynne > *Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30 > *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org > *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track > > > On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: > > > > > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. > > Perhaps that someone is you? > > Hi Andy, > > Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, > Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space > and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly > by hosting something from OSM. > > > > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the > > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ > > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the > > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as > > > > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 > > > > Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but > I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for > the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only > for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now. > > I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of > creating my own map does appeal to me. > > Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the > cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm > buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: > > https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg > > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. > > This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more > than a "track" - note the double gates: > > https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8 > > cheers, > > Martin. > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 09:11:32PM +, Martin Wynne wrote: > On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote: > > > What I'm wondering is how the typical recreational country walker would find > that map, or get it on their mobile phone app in place of the awful Google > maps? It's a lot of work to create if no-one ever uses it? Just to mention that I use navit on my satnavs, and that has a good "POI" feature which would show benches in the vicinity. I understand that there is a Android version, so presumably it works on those types of smartphone. https://github.com/navit-gps & https://www.navit-project.org/ etc. ael ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 10:44:24AM +, Peter Neale via Talk-GB wrote: > IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but > could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else. FWIIW, I would very definitely tag that as a service road. Driveway seems quite inappropriate. ael ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
and the surface deteriorates to the >>>> usual farm mud: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg >>>> >>>> >>>> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name >>>> (Noverton Farm) sounded familiar. >>>> >>>> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 >>>>I did a long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak >>>> District, following ordinary footpaths (planned using >>>> OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. >>>> It was very nice >>>> but>>>> the footpaths were in an appaling state of >>>> disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day >>>>having to scramble through dense shrub cover and >>>> attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to >>>> recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some >>>> particularly badly-maintained footpaths. >>>> >>>> As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. >>>> I wanted to illustrate the walk on the internet but OS >>>> licensing did not permit it, which is how I started >>>> Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still >>>> haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but... >>>> >>>> Would be interested to find out if the area has improved >>>> since.. >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From:>>>> Martin Wynne <>>>> mar...@templot.com>>>> > >>>> >>>> Sent:>>>> 12 December 2020 14:30 >>>> >>>> To:>>>> >>>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>>> <>>>> >>>> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>>>> > >>>> >>>> Subject:>>>> Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track>>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: >>>> >>>> > >>>> > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" >>>> will need to do it. >>>> > Perhaps that someone is you? >>>> >>>> Hi Andy, >>>> >>>> Yes that someone could be me. I have a server >>>> (located in Columbus, >>>> Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the >>>> available memory space >>>> and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better >>>> use of it, possibly >>>> by hosting something from OSM. >>>> >>>> >>>> > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the >>>> > standard map rendering as per >>>> >>>> https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ >>>> > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start >>>> tinkering with the >>>> > logic that decides what sort of service road is >>>> what, such as >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks. I have been looking at >>>> >>>> https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/>>>> but >>>> I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, >>>> but on stuff for >>>> the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and >>>> saw interfaces only >>>> for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would >>>> have dived in by now. >>>> >>>> I will have another look and see where I might >>>> start. The idea of >>>> creating my own map does appeal to me. >>>> >>>> Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. >>>> Beyond the >>>> cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left >>>> through the farm >>>> buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual >>>> farm mud: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg >>>> >>>> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but >>>> not the hardcore. If >>>> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the >>>> dreaded tagging for >>>> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of >>>> the world "track" >>>> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all >>>> vehicles. >>>> >>>> This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this >>>> is definitely more >>>> than a "track" - note the double gates: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8 >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> >>>> Martin. >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> Talk-GB mailing list >>>> >>>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >>>> >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >>>> ___ >>>> Talk-GB mailing list >>>> >>>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >>>> >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >>>> >>> ___ >>> Talk-GB mailing list >>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >>> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >>> >>> >> >> ___Talk-GB mailing list>> >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
I run into from time to time and was unsure how to tag this. On the other hand highway=track is supposed to be used on roads used to access fields/forests (often unpaved and of low quality, but there are also high quality asphalt tracktype=grade1 surface=asphalt ones). So with road that is both access road to single house and forest neither highway=track nor highway=service service=driveway really matches. Dec 13, 2020, 11:44 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org: > IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but > could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else. > > The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis), > > " ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property. It > typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a > specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance, > but either way, it gets close to its destination. > It is rare for a driveway > to be the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems below)." > > (pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties) > > So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a > track), it is not a driveway. Does this solve the problem? > > Regards, > Peter > > Peter Neale > t: 01908 309666 > m: 07968 341930 > skype: nealepb > > > On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton > wrote: > > > Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to > ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track > doesn't solve the problem. > > That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The different > surfaces can be caught in the attributes. > > On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton <> bainton@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg >> > >> > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If >> > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for >> > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" >> > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. >> >> I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd >> probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the >> farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a >> building). >> >> Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track? >> >> I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is >> what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for >> the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say >> track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by >> "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban. >> >> But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await >> correction by my olders. >> >> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <>> >> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> > wrote: >> >>> >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the >>> >>> >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm >>> >>> >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg >>> >>> >>> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded >>> familiar. >>> >>> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a long >>> distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary >>> footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme >>> Valley. It was very nice >>> but>>> the footpaths were in an appaling >>> state of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to >>> scramble through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire >>> fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some >>> particularly badly-maintained footpaths. >>> >>> As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to >>> illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, >>> which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I >>&
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
Seems to me that apart from the tagging, the issue highlighted here is with how the general public cab easily use OSM? Going to the OSM map, the layers on offer are Standard, Cycle Map (which does show the driveway connected) etc. but if a user wants a more specific use this is not easy to find. To my mind this is where more options from the worldwide map fail to deliver and is a bigger issue that can be resolved by understanding the 'customer' journey better? On 13/12/2020 10:28, Nick Allen wrote: Hi, I tend to think of tagging more in terms of 'who will use this?' I know my local area extremely well, so I map it as best I can using tags that will make sense to anyone visiting the area. When I'm away from home I use OSM extensively to find things, and hope that the local mappers are using a universal scheme so that it will work for me. I've travelled on roads in Portugal, Spain an parts of Africa which dont have a surface such as tarmac (tarmacadam / asphalt) or concrete, but instead have been built with a top coating similar to clay, which is compressed and then smoothed using a grader. Particularly in Portugal, at the time I drove on them, these 'unsurfaced' roads were so good that they were better than the (at that time) M25 which was full of pot-holes and difficult to drive safely on. Although https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highways <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highways> is the obvious choice to look at, I actually find that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa> explains it better. Regards & Happy Mapping / Surveying Nick (Tallguy) On Sun, 2020-12-13 at 10:08 +, Edward Bainton wrote: > https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg <https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg> > > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a building). Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track? I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban. But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await correction by my olders. On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote: >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg <https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded familiar. A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice *but* the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths. As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but... Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since.. Nick *From:* Martin Wynne mailto:mar...@templot.com>> *Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30 *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: > > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. > Perhaps that someone is you? Hi Andy, Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
Hi everyone, I notice I'm being CCed in quite a bit here. Just to make it clear, there are at least two "Nick"s on the thread. I just made the comment about Noverton Farm - it's another Nick who has made most of the contributions. It's an interesting thread but just want to make sure that I am not being attributed to posts I didn't make. Thanks, Nick From: Peter Neale Sent: 13 December 2020 10:44 To: Nick Whitelegg ; Edward Bainton Cc: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else. The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis), " ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property. It typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance, but either way, it gets close to its destination. It is rare for a driveway to be the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems below)." (pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties) So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a track), it is not a driveway. Does this solve the problem? Regards, Peter Peter Neale t: 01908 309666 m: 07968 341930 skype: nealepb On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton wrote: Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track doesn't solve the problem. That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The different surfaces can be caught in the attributes. On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton mailto:bainton@gmail.com>> wrote: > https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg > > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a building). Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track? I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban. But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await correction by my olders. On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> wrote: >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded familiar. A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice but the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths. As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but... Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since.. Nick From: Martin Wynne mailto:mar...@templot.com>> Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> mailto:talk-gb@openstreetmap.org>> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: > > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. > Perhaps that someone is you? Hi Andy, Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway", but could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else. The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis), " ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property. It typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance, but either way, it gets close to its destination. It is rare for a driveway to be the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems below)." (pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties) So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a track), it is not a driveway. Does this solve the problem? Regards,Peter Peter Neale t: 01908 309666 m: 07968 341930 skype: nealepb On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton wrote: Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track doesn't solve the problem. That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The different surfaces can be caught in the attributes. On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton wrote: > https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg > > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a building). Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track? I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban. But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await correction by my olders. On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB wrote: >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded familiar. A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very nicebut the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths. As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but... Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since.. Nick From: Martin Wynne Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: > > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. > Perhaps that someone is you? Hi Andy, Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly by hosting something from OSM. > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now. I
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On Sun, 13 Dec 2020, 10:23 Edward Bainton, wrote: > Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to > ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track > doesn't solve the problem. > > That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The > different surfaces can be caught in the attributes. > If I understand correctly, the way is at once a service road, a track, a bridleway and a driveway, and the problem is that tagging it service=driveway makes data consumers categorise it as a driveway, which is considered to be less important than a track or bridleway. So why not tag it highway=service service=track driveway=yes? That should allow data consumers to reach the correct category while preserving information. On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton wrote: > >> > https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg >> > >> > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If >> > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for >> > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" >> > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. >> >> I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, >> I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes >> the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to >> a building). >> >> Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track? >> >> I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is >> what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for >> the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say >> track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by >> "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban. >> >> But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I >> await correction by my olders. >> >> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB < >> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: >> >>> >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the >>> >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm >>> >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: >>> >>> >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg >>> >>> >>> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) >>> sounded familiar. >>> >>> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a long >>> distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary >>> footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme >>> Valley. It was very nice *but* the footpaths were in an appaling state >>> of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble >>> through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I >>> seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly >>> badly-maintained footpaths. >>> >>> As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to >>> illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, >>> which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I >>> still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but... >>> >>> Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since.. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *From:* Martin Wynne >>> *Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30 >>> *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track >>> >>> On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. >>> > Perhaps that someone is you? >>> >>> Hi Andy, >>> >>> Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, >>> Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space >>> and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly >>> by hosting something from OSM. >>> >>> >>> > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the >>> > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ >>> > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start t
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
Hi, I tend to think of tagging more in terms of 'who will use this?' I know my local area extremely well, so I map it as best I can using tags that will make sense to anyone visiting the area. When I'm away from home I use OSM extensively to find things, and hope that the local mappers are using a universal scheme so that it will work for me. I've travelled on roads in Portugal, Spain an parts of Africa which dont have a surface such as tarmac (tarmacadam / asphalt) or concrete, but instead have been built with a top coating similar to clay, which is compressed and then smoothed using a grader. Particularly in Portugal, at the time I drove on them, these 'unsurfaced' roads were so good that they were better than the (at that time) M25 which was full of pot-holes and difficult to drive safely on. Although https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highways is the obvious choice to look at, I actually find that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa explains it better. Regards & Happy Mapping / Surveying Nick(Tallguy) On Sun, 2020-12-13 at 10:08 +, Edward Bainton wrote: > > https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg > > > > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the > hardcore. If > > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded > tagging for > > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world > "track" > > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. > > > I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland > lights, I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly > once it passes the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying > car-worthy access to a building). > > > Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track? > > > I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer > is what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging > it for the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this > case, I'd say track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole > length, if by "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and > suburban. > > > But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I > await correction by my olders. > > On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB < > talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Getting back to this > > case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the > > > > >cattle-grid the public > > bridleway continues left through the farm > > > > >buildings, and the surface > > deteriorates to the usual farm mud: > > > > > > > > >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) > > sounded familiar. > > > > > > > > > > > > A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a > > long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following > > ordinary footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this > > area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice > > but the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I > > remember on several occasions that day having to scramble through > > dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I > > seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly > > badly-maintained footpaths. > > > > > > > > > > > > As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted > > to illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not > > permit it, which is how I started Freemap and then later got > > involved with OSM. I still haven't illustrated this walk > > incidentally, > > but... > > > > > > > > > > > > Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Martin Wynne > > > > Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30 > > > > To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org > > > > Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track > > > > > > > > On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track doesn't solve the problem. That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The different surfaces can be caught in the attributes. On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton wrote: > > https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg > > > > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If > > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for > > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" > > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. > > I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, > I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes > the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to > a building). > > Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track? > > I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is > what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for > the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say > track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by > "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban. > > But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I > await correction by my olders. > > On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB < > talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > >> >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the >> >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm >> >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: >> >> >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg >> >> >> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) >> sounded familiar. >> >> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a long >> distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary >> footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme >> Valley. It was very nice *but* the footpaths were in an appaling state >> of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble >> through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I >> seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly >> badly-maintained footpaths. >> >> As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to >> illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, >> which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I >> still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but... >> >> Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since.. >> >> Nick >> >> >> -- >> *From:* Martin Wynne >> *Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30 >> *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track >> >> On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: >> >> > >> > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. >> > Perhaps that someone is you? >> >> Hi Andy, >> >> Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, >> Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space >> and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly >> by hosting something from OSM. >> >> >> > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the >> > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ >> > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the >> > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as >> > >> >> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 >> >> >> >> Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but >> I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for >> the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only >> for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now. >> >> I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of >> creating my own map does appeal to me. >> >> Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the >> cattl
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
> https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg > > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights, I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to a building). Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track? I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban. But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I await correction by my olders. On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB < talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the > >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm > >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: > > >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg > > > Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) > sounded familiar. > > A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a long > distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary > footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme > Valley. It was very nice *but* the footpaths were in an appaling state > of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble > through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I > seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly > badly-maintained footpaths. > > As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to > illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, > which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I > still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but... > > Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since.. > > Nick > > > -- > *From:* Martin Wynne > *Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30 > *To:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org > *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track > > On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: > > > > > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. > > Perhaps that someone is you? > > Hi Andy, > > Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, > Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space > and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly > by hosting something from OSM. > > > > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the > > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ > > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the > > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as > > > > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 > > > > Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but > I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for > the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only > for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now. > > I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of > creating my own map does appeal to me. > > Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the > cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm > buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: > > https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg > > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. > > This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more > than a "track" - note the double gates: > > https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8 > > cheers, > > Martin. > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
>Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm) sounded familiar. A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a long distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme Valley. It was very nice but the footpaths were in an appaling state of disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly badly-maintained footpaths. As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it, which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but... Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since.. Nick From: Martin Wynne Sent: 12 December 2020 14:30 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: > > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. > Perhaps that someone is you? Hi Andy, Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly by hosting something from OSM. > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now. I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of creating my own map does appeal to me. Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more than a "track" - note the double gates: https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8 cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 10:54:54PM +, ael via Talk-GB wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 09:11:32PM +, Martin Wynne wrote: > > On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote: > > > > something about myself, is to map and provide rendering for the area:highway > > tag: > > > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway > > > > Country walkers often need to include a stretch of public road in a planned > > walk, and it is very difficult to discover whether a road will be safe to > > walk along. > > > What might work in practice is to invent a tag along the lines > of walker_friendly = yes|no|maybe although some may complain that it > is subjective. I am not seriously suggesting that "walker_friendly" > is a good choice for a name, but something along those lines is > the only thing that I think the majority of mappers could reasonably > use widely. Following up on myself, I see a problem when faced with a narrow lane which is barely used by traffic. Normally very safe for walkers. But occasionally unsafe when an vehicle decides to use it at high speed. If someone had actually tagged the area, that might be inferred. But that is extremely unlikely. ael ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 09:11:32PM +, Martin Wynne wrote:
> On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
> something about myself, is to map and provide rendering for the area:highway
> tag:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway
>
> Country walkers often need to include a stretch of public road in a planned
> walk, and it is very difficult to discover whether a road will be safe to
> walk along.
The trouble with this is that someone has to map those areas. I map
a fair few country lanes, but I can seldom estimate their width, let
alone an accurate area. I do try to record any pavements or paths
("sidewalk = left|right|both", yuk): that is precisely with walkers in
mind. I very much appreciate your point, but how is the mapping
on-the-ground to be done? Even when there is properly aligned high
resolution imagery, that is not going to work under tree cover which is very
common, of course.
What might work in practice is to invent a tag along the lines
of walker_friendly = yes|no|maybe although some may complain that it
is subjective. I am not seriously suggesting that "walker_friendly"
is a good choice for a name, but something along those lines is
the only thing that I think the majority of mappers could reasonably
use widely.
ael
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 21:30, David Woolley wrote: Your first problem would be establishing a funding model for it; OSM, in general, is not funded to a level that would support large scale end user use. Hi David, Small-scale end use would be a start. But folks need to find it in the first place. Andy obviously already has some hosting on a server, and I do too. So funding for small-scale use would not be a problem. Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 21:11, Martin Wynne wrote: What I'm wondering is how the typical recreational country walker would find that map, Your first problem would be establishing a funding model for it; OSM, in general, is not funded to a level that would support large scale end user use. > or get it on their mobile phone app in place of the awful Google maps? It's a lot of work to create if no-one ever uses it? Google maps, as used in phones, are vector maps, with the rendering done in the phone itself ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote: That allows maps such as https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=52.28208=-2.42987 to display it as a public bridleway (in blue) Hi Andy, That's a great map! It seems you have already done what I would be interested in doing - to provide a better map for walkers and others showing footpaths, stiles and gates, etc. much more prominently. What I'm wondering is how the typical recreational country walker would find that map, or get it on their mobile phone app in place of the awful Google maps? It's a lot of work to create if no-one ever uses it? One thing I would ask for is more prominent rendering of benches. They appear only at maximum zoom on the OSM standard map, and only as a very small symbol. I don't suppose younger OSM mappers roam the countryside looking for somewhere to sit and eat their lunch, but at 72 years of age I do (cheese & pickle sandwich and a hard-boiled egg, since you ask)! Something I feel strongly about, and would be a prime motivation for doing something about myself, is to map and provide rendering for the area:highway tag: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway Country walkers often need to include a stretch of public road in a planned walk, and it is very difficult to discover whether a road will be safe to walk along. Sometimes there are wide verges, but sometimes high banks or close hedges with nowhere to leap to out of the way of approaching traffic. It's necessary to look on Google Streetview before setting out, but not all country roads are covered. At present even apps which do render it (I believe OsmAnd) can't do much because it is not commonly mapped between the hedgerows along country roads. Legally the entire area between the property boundaries on each side is the public highway. Having recently been very nearly taken out by a van while walking (legally!) along an A road, it's an omission I want to do something about. Local highway authorities are required by law to provide a "Public Footpath" sign where a public footpath joins a road. But they are not required to provide any safe means of reaching it. cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 19:47, Nick wrote: Hi Andy Yes I understand the tag that has been used (i.e. designation) although I was suggesting the tag "Bridleway", the question that Martin posed was that "at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown", so the work around in this case might be to make a way with feature type = Bridleway? Hi Nick, "highway=bridleway" is in use, and is used to mean something designed for horses to use. In rural areas that might coincide with something that also has the legal "designation=public_bridleway", but sometimes not - farmers may add "permissive bridleways" through their fields to allow access as an existing horse route. From the description given, I don't think this is an actual bridleway as such (see the picture at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway ), and so I don't think it would make sense to map it in OSM as a "highway=bridleway". Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
Hi Andy Yes I understand the tag that has been used (i.e. designation) although I was suggesting the tag "Bridleway", the question that Martin posed was that "at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown", so the work around in this case might be to make a way with feature type = Bridleway? Cheers Nick On 12/12/2020 17:37, Andy Townsend wrote: On 12/12/2020 13:59, Nick wrote: I had to check the Council GIS - so the designation is Bridleway. Because of the complexity, if this was tagged something like 'Bridleway=Yes' and get that displayed on maps of footpaths, surely that would solve the problem? Hi Nick, Yes that is pretty much what is already happening here. One of the ways here https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/661519636 has a tag on it "designation=public_bridleway". That describes the legal status of "bridleway" (rather than what it actually looks like on the ground). That allows maps such as https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=52.28208=-2.42987 to display it as a public bridleway (in blue) Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 13:59, Nick wrote: I had to check the Council GIS - so the designation is Bridleway. Because of the complexity, if this was tagged something like 'Bridleway=Yes' and get that displayed on maps of footpaths, surely that would solve the problem? Hi Nick, Yes that is pretty much what is already happening here. One of the ways here https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/661519636 has a tag on it "designation=public_bridleway". That describes the legal status of "bridleway" (rather than what it actually looks like on the ground). That allows maps such as https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=52.28208=-2.42987 to display it as a public bridleway (in blue) Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 14:30, Martin Wynne wrote: On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. Perhaps that someone is you? Hi Andy, Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly by hosting something from OSM. \o/ > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now. To be honest, I still struggle with the OSM Carto stuff too. That's why the logic stuff behind https://map.atownsend.org.uk is in lua as much as possible, such as at https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L537 . Even if there are lots of brackets, at least they line up. All the OSM Carto stuff has to do is do something with a highway value of "ucrnarrow" (which of course never exists in OSM). If you get stuck either ask here or on IRC or at help.osm.org. The "serving tiles"guides are designed to be able to be followed without any programming expertise (especially the Docker one). Also see https://ircama.github.io/osm-carto-tutorials/ - there's a lot of useful stuff there too. Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more than a "track" - note the double gates: https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8 To be honest, there will always be edge cases where it's difficult to say where the OSM tag should change, or even what OSM tag would be best to start with. I can think of plenty of places that are 50/50 agricultural track and service road or driveway, and plenty more that are 30/70 or 70/30 etc. Ultimately we've just got to pick the best tags we can, and sometimes there will be odd effects as here. Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote: Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. Perhaps that someone is you? Hi Andy, Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus, Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly by hosting something from OSM. > I'd suggest setting up a copy of the > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now. I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of creating my own map does appeal to me. Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud: https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track" means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles. This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more than a "track" - note the double gates: https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8 cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
Hi Martin I had to check the Council GIS - so the designation is Bridleway. Because of the complexity, if this was tagged something like 'Bridleway=Yes' and get that displayed on maps of footpaths, surely that would solve the problem? Nick On 12/12/2020 13:41, Martin Wynne wrote: On 12/12/2020 13:03, Nick wrote: For this particular example it is clearly complex as it was shown as a 'permissive' footpath (other non vehicular access was along the designated bridleway). As this is in England and given that the driveway seems to have just been changed to 'designated', I assume the change made to the map allowing 'other access' along the private driveway could be contested by the landowner? Hi Nick, I'm not clear what you are saying there? The driveway is a public bridleway which subsequently passes through a farmyard. The farmer has provided a permissive by-pass footpath for walkers to avoid the farmyard. The driveway has been broken into 3 sections and given separate pro-ref numbers (not by me). cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 13:16, Mark Goodge wrote: Out in a rural area, nearly everybody would call that length of road, especially one that links a public highway with private farm tracks, a track or access road. Hi Mark, I'm not sure about that. In this part of the world, a roadway which links from a public road to a private residence is called a "drive" (not usually "driveway") irrespective of the length, or what other tracks or footpaths connect to it, and also irrespective of its legal status as a public byway or public bridleway. If it's a public highway for all, it's just called a "road" or "lane". cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
For this particular example it is clearly complex as it was shown as a 'permissive' footpath (other non vehicular access was along the designated bridleway). As this is in England and given that the driveway seems to have just been changed to 'designated', I assume the change made to the map allowing 'other access' along the private driveway could be contested by the landowner? On 12/12/2020 12:44, Martin Wynne wrote: p.s. here's a screenshot of that. It looks silly: https://85a.uk/missing_driveway_zoom15.png Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 13:03, Nick wrote: For this particular example it is clearly complex as it was shown as a 'permissive' footpath (other non vehicular access was along the designated bridleway). As this is in England and given that the driveway seems to have just been changed to 'designated', I assume the change made to the map allowing 'other access' along the private driveway could be contested by the landowner? Hi Nick, I'm not clear what you are saying there? The driveway is a public bridleway which subsequently passes through a farmyard. The farmer has provided a permissive by-pass footpath for walkers to avoid the farmyard. The driveway has been broken into 3 sections and given separate pro-ref numbers (not by me). cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 13:20, Nick wrote: Would changing this to Tag:highway=bridleway be a starting point? I think the OP was saying there is a separate bridleway, almost parallel to the feature in question. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
Would changing this to Tag:highway=bridleway be a starting point? On 12/12/2020 13:03, Nick wrote: For this particular example it is clearly complex as it was shown as a 'permissive' footpath (other non vehicular access was along the designated bridleway). As this is in England and given that the driveway seems to have just been changed to 'designated', I assume the change made to the map allowing 'other access' along the private driveway could be contested by the landowner? On 12/12/2020 12:44, Martin Wynne wrote: p.s. here's a screenshot of that. It looks silly: https://85a.uk/missing_driveway_zoom15.png Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
Yes, however the reasoning for this is that sometimes someone has drawn every single driveway on a street in a city/town. Rendering this at low zoom levels would clutter the map. By contrast, tracks are often much more sparsely populated, so they don't clutter the map. I don't know what the solution to this would be, however. IpswichMapper-- 12 Dec 2020, 12:34 by mar...@templot.com: > A common situation is that a service road/driveway continues as a track > beyond the initial residential destination. This is common on farms. > > On the standard map at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown. But tracks and > footpaths are. This seems counter-intuitive in that driveways are usually > wider and more substantially surfaced than farm tracks. > > The result is that a track, and sometimes a footpath, appears to start in the > middle of nowhere. > > An example of that is at: > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.2816/-2.4320 > > What is the process for getting something done about this? > > thanks, > > Martin. > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 12:34, Martin Wynne wrote: A common situation is that a service road/driveway continues as a track beyond the initial residential destination. This is common on farms. On the standard map at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown. But tracks and footpaths are. This seems counter-intuitive in that driveways are usually wider and more substantially surfaced than farm tracks. The result is that a track, and sometimes a footpath, appears to start in the middle of nowhere. An example of that is at: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.2816/-2.4320 What is the process for getting something done about this? I wouldn't tag that as a driveway. I'd tag it as a track or a service road. That's not tagging for the renderer, it's tagging according to common usage. A driveway, these days, at least in the UK, generally means a short section of off-street parking attached to an urban dwelling. Out in a rural area, nearly everybody would call that length of road, especially one that links a public highway with private farm tracks, a track or access road. The wiki seems to agree with me in this scenario, saying that "It is rare for a driveway to be the way to access another roadway". If it is the access to another roadway extending beyond it (eg, a farm track) then it's not a driveway, it's an access road and should be tagged accordingly. Mark ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
On 12/12/2020 12:34, Martin Wynne wrote: A common situation is that a service road/driveway continues as a track beyond the initial residential destination. This is common on farms. On the standard map at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown. But tracks and footpaths are. This seems counter-intuitive in that driveways are usually wider and more substantially surfaced than farm tracks. The result is that a track, and sometimes a footpath, appears to start in the middle of nowhere. An example of that is at: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.2816/-2.4320 What is the process for getting something done about this? It's only a problem with one particular map rendering (other maps such as https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/52.2892/-2.4360=C look sensible), so you'd need to raise that with that map rendering. In the case of the map that you are talking about, that would be https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto . If you look through the issues list there you'll see that this problem has been discussed before, and (for the reasons that ipswichmapper has already mentioned, it hasn't been fixed because it's a hard problem to solve. Once a problem has been reported and is already known about (as is the case here) someone would need to figure out a way to solve the problem. There are a few possibilities: One is to "only suppress urban driveways not rural ones", which would require that somehow the map can tell whether a location is "urban" or "rural". Another might be to "not suppress driveways that have other tags". In your case https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/661519636 has foot, horse and bicycle tags that could potentially help here. Any technical solution would still need to convince the volunteers that maintain this map style that the change is a "good idea", and would not cause more serious knock-on problems elsewhere. Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it. Perhaps that someone is you? I'd suggest setting up a copy of the standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475 . If you think "that someone is really _not_ me" then you can still use another map, and can make sure that all appropriate tags are added to things so that other maps can use them. I certainly owe some thanks to that area's mappers as https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=16=52.28208=-2.42987 (which shows designations and PRoW refs) is all filled in there. Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
p.s. here's a screenshot of that. It looks silly: https://85a.uk/missing_driveway_zoom15.png Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
A common situation is that a service road/driveway continues as a track beyond the initial residential destination. This is common on farms. On the standard map at zoom level 15, driveways are not shown. But tracks and footpaths are. This seems counter-intuitive in that driveways are usually wider and more substantially surfaced than farm tracks. The result is that a track, and sometimes a footpath, appears to start in the middle of nowhere. An example of that is at: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.2816/-2.4320 What is the process for getting something done about this? thanks, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
