Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

If you have better ideas of how to specify ligature-related properties in CSS, please send them to the relevant place given in the draft (sorry, currently offline, otherwise I'd look it up). Regards, Martin. On 2011/09/13 1:41, Christoph Päper wrote: Philippe Verdy: And it would be desira

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

I clearly see ligatures when zooming in, and the ligature disappears when I select an individual character (Is that a rendering issue of the Arial font, where the glyphs are colliding, and the collisions are not expected when performing individual character selections ?) I also see these ligatures

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

13/09/2011 00:42, Stephan Stiller wrote: On 9/12/2011 10:46 AM, Philippe Verdy wrote: common-ligatures Enables display of common ligatures (OpenType feature: |liga|). For OpenType fonts, common ligatures are enabled by default. This means that German documents will really need to use ZWNJ (for

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

I clearly see ligatures when zooming in, and the ligature disappears when I select an individual character Philippe is referring to the same effect you could see on an older Firefox that, when you'd mark/select Arabic text with your mouse, it'd re-render the characters as if there were addit

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Not necessarily : Uniscribe can place a caret on an approximative position in the middle of a ligature, but the situation is different when performing a selection, because it splits the text in separate runs (with distinct color attributes, even though they are part of the same "range"). See the t

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

2011/9/13 Jukka K. Korpela : > 13/09/2011 07:18, Philippe Verdy wrote: > >> I clearly see ligatures when zooming in, > > That’s odd, because when looking at text in Arial, I find it very difficult > to distinguish between the fi combination and the ligature U+FB01 (fi). > There’s one pixel less spac

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

13/09/2011 07:18, Philippe Verdy wrote: I clearly see ligatures when zooming in, That’s odd, because when looking at text in Arial, I find it very difficult to distinguish between the fi combination and the ligature U+FB01 (fi). There’s one pixel less space between the f and i in the ligatur

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

12/09/2011 20:29, Philippe Verdy wrote: I see those ligatures applied in Chrome v.13.0.782.220 over Windows 7 SP1 French, just when reading this email in Gmail which renders it with the stock Arial font of Windows (no webfont used). My locale preferences in the browser and in my Gmail profile ar

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

On 9/12/2011 10:46 AM, Philippe Verdy wrote: common-ligatures Enables display of common ligatures (OpenType feature: |liga|). For OpenType fonts, common ligatures are enabled by default. This means that German documents will really need to use ZWNJ (fortunately, this character should soon bec

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Even if Dorfladen is not ambigous, it could be disturbing (and at first reading be understood as some obscure compound of -fladen. Yep - I agree with your perception. But the point was not {that use of ligatures vs not using them is for disambiguation} but instead {that only ambiguous compou

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Note: an old bug (signaled by me multiple times 2.5 years ago) is now being corrected in Chrome since today: the Uniscribe part of the Webkit renderer has a very critical bug that was finally isolated, it caused the whole Windows desktop to become almost frozen or impossible to refresh on some cond

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

2011/9/12 Christoph Päper > Philippe Verdy: > > > And it would be desirable to have a standardized CSS property for > controling this default behavior in browsers. > > > > (In my opinion there would be better ways to spec this, though

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

2011/9/12 Jukka K. Korpela > 12.9.2011 18:19, Philippe Verdy wrote: > > Yes, but some web browsers like Firefox automatically apply an `fl' >>ligature... >> >> Well, not just Firefox, because Chrome is now doing the same thing for >> this message ! >> > > Can you give more details? I just

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Philippe Verdy: > And it would be desirable to have a standardized CSS property for controling > this default behavior in browsers. (In my opinion there would be better ways to spec this, though.)

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

12.9.2011 18:19, Philippe Verdy wrote: Yes, but some web browsers like Firefox automatically apply an `fl' ligature... Well, not just Firefox, because Chrome is now doing the same thing for this message ! Can you give more details? I just checked that my Chrome (Win 7) is up-to-date

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

> "WL" == Werner LEMBERG writes: >> But "Dorfladen" is not ambiguous. WL> Yes, but some web browsers like Firefox automatically apply an `fl' WL> ligature... Only if the font does. (At least in the case of gecko-on-X11.) Ideally the text should be tagged as DE so that the app can call the

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

2011/9/12 Werner LEMBERG > > >> Consider the word `Dorfladen' (village shop). Using `=' to > >> indicate a compound break point and `-' for normal ones, the proper > >> break points are `Dorf=la-den' which means no `fl' ligature. Note > >> that `Fladen' means `cow dung', so having a ligature th

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Am Montag, 12. September 2011 um 15:38 schrieb Christoph Päper: CP> ZWJ or ZWNJ should become easier to input on standard keyboard CP> layouts, not only in the German one. ZWNJ is present on the new German standard keyboard layout "T2", to be entered as AltGr+".", exactly to mark the places where

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Szelp A. Szabolcs: > Even if Dorfladen is not ambigous, it could be disturbing ‹Dorfladen› and ‹Auflage› certainly are disturbing. For the current German orthography, smart fonts should rather sport ligatures for double consonants, especially when followed by a third one of their kind in compou

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

>> Consider the word `Dorfladen' (village shop). Using `=' to >> indicate a compound break point and `-' for normal ones, the proper >> break points are `Dorf=la-den' which means no `fl' ligature. Note >> that `Fladen' means `cow dung', so having a ligature there is >> really bad. > > But "Dorf

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Even if Dorfladen is not ambigous, it could be disturbing (and at first reading be understood as some obscure compound of -fladen. Once I read a text, it used ligature (inappropriately) in the word Auflage 'obligation', which is compounded from the prefix auf- 'upon' -lage , a nominal derivative o

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Well, it's not that complicated. Ligatures in German must not happen at compound break points, while they can be applied to ordinary break points. Consider the word `Dorfladen' (village shop). Using `=' to indicate a compound break point and `-' for normal ones, the proper break points are `Dor

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

>> Certain layout processes, in certain cases, in certain languages, >> simply can't be fully automated. > > And interestingly, there is a crucial difference between ligatures > and hyphenation in this regard: While a conservative processor could > simply omit hyphenation in ambiguous cases (poten

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

From my background I never perceived a need, but I guess I (and most people??) wouldn't really mind the tradition coming back (in Germany) if things are designed well (which is the job of the font designer) and for the user everything is handled automatically in the background by the availabl

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

From my background I never perceived a need, but I guess I (and most people??) wouldn't really mind the tradition coming back (in Germany) if things are designed well (which is the job of the font designer) and for the user everything is handled automatically in the background by the availabl

RE: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Richard Wordingham Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 5:19 PM To: Unicode Discussion Subject: Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text? On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 23:14:04 +0200 Kent Karlsson wrote: > Den 2011-09-11 18:53, skrev "Pe

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 23:14:04 +0200 Kent Karlsson wrote: > Den 2011-09-11 18:53, skrev "Peter Constable" > : > > Hence, in a monospaced font, FB01 certainly should look different > > from <0066, > > 0069>, regardless of whether ligature glyphs are used in either > > 0069>case. > > If "monospace"

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Saturday, September 10, 2011 10:33 PM > To: Michael Everson > Cc: unicode Unicode Discussion > Subject: Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code > points aren't normally used in text? > > 2011/9/11 Michael Everson : >> On 11 Sep 2011, at 00:23,

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

An old acquaintance of mine, many years ago, pointed out two cases in Dutch: a hunter of kiwi birds, kiwijager, cannot use the customary ij ligature. And as for parsing ambiguities, he observed that there were three different ways of understanding the word "kwartslagen", depending on whether it

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

On 9/9/2011 8:12 PM, Stephan Stiller wrote: Dear Martin, Thanks for alerting me to the issue of causal direction of aesthetic preference - it's been on my mind, but your reply helps me sort out some details. When I first encountered text (outside of the German language locale) with ample us

RE: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

org [mailto:unicode-bou...@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Philippe Verdy Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 10:33 PM To: Michael Everson Cc: unicode Unicode Discussion Subject: Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text? 2011/9/11 Michae

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

2011/9/11 Michael Everson : > On 11 Sep 2011, at 00:23, Richard Wordingham wrote: > >> A font need not support such ligation, but a glyph for U+FB01 must >> ligate the letters - otherwise it's not U+FB01! > > Not in monowidth, it doesn't. I also agree, a monospaced font can perfectly show the dot

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Den 2011-09-11 01:23, skrev "Richard Wordingham" : > On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 23:53:34 +0200 > Kent Karlsson wrote: > >> IMO, a glyph (if any) for that compatibility character should look >> *exactly* like an "fi" (after automatic ligature formation, if that >> is done for "fi") in the font used. So

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

On 11 Sep 2011, at 00:23, Richard Wordingham wrote: > A font need not support such ligation, but a glyph for U+FB01 must > ligate the letters - otherwise it's not U+FB01! Not in monowidth, it doesn't. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 23:53:34 +0200 Kent Karlsson wrote: > IMO, a glyph (if any) for that compatibility character should look > *exactly* like an "fi" (after automatic ligature formation, if that > is done for "fi") in the font used. So if no ligature for "fi" is > formed, the glyph for U+FB01 (if

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Den 2011-09-10 23:06, skrev "Richard Wordingham" : > On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:19:27 +0200 > Kent Karlsson wrote: > >> >> Den 2011-09-10 20:58, skrev "Jukka K. Korpela" : >> >>> According to Oxford Style >>> Manual, one should not use the fi ligature in Turkish, as that >>> would obscure the dis

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

In fact I also think that the fi ligature is still suitable for Turkish, the way it is encoded, as meaning the ligature of a f and a dotted i. I don't see why such ligature would not exhibit the presence of the dot. It is just a matter of glyph design, and a ligature of f and dotted i is still pos

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:19:27 +0200 Kent Karlsson wrote: > > Den 2011-09-10 20:58, skrev "Jukka K. Korpela" : > > > According to Oxford Style > > Manual, one should not use the fi ligature in Turkish, as that > > would obscure the distinction between normal i and dotless i (ž). > It does not m

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Den 2011-09-10 20:58, skrev "Jukka K. Korpela" : > There is a deeper language-dependency. According to Oxford Style Manual, > one should not use the fi ligature in Turkish, as that would obscure the > distinction between normal i and dotless i (ž). This makes perfect sense > to me. It does not m

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

10.9.2011 2:14, Kent Karlsson wrote: But of course, which pairs of letters (or indeed also punctuation) are likely to occur adjacently is language dependent. Indeed, and I used to think (some years ago) that in Finnish, even the “fi” ligature does not matter much and isn’t used (as “f” only o

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

> ligature usage - WAS: > How do we find out what assigned code points aren't > normally used in text? In most countries, each government has a language unit (each country has literary society as well). You can find contact address for such unit by writing to that county's C

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Dear Martin, Thanks for alerting me to the issue of causal direction of aesthetic preference - it's been on my mind, but your reply helps me sort out some details. When I first encountered text (outside of the German language locale) with ample use of ligatures in modern printed text, I defi

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

On 2011/09/10 9:32, Stephan Stiller wrote: Actually, I *was* talking about purely typographic/aesthetic ligatures as well. I'm aware that which di-/trigraphs need to be considered from a font design perspective is language-dependent. And this language-dependence is not only a question of letter

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Actually, I *was* talking about purely typographic/aesthetic ligatures as well. I'm aware that which di-/trigraphs need to be considered from a font design perspective is language-dependent. But the point is that I observe that: (a) aesthetic ligatures are not frequently see

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Den 2011-09-10 02:32, skrev "Stephan Stiller" : >Actually, I *was* talking about purely typographic/aesthetic ligatures as > well. I'm aware that which di-/trigraphs need to be considered from a font > design perspective is language-dependent. But the point is that I observe > that: > (a)

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Actually, I *was* talking about purely typographic/aesthetic ligatures as well. I'm aware that which di-/trigraphs need to be considered from a font design perspective is language-dependent. But the point is that I observe that: (a) aesthetic ligatures are not frequently seen in modern German p

Re: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Oh, my apologies. In that case, CaseFolding.txt (from the Unicode character database) says: FB05; F; 0073 0074; # LATIN SMALL LIGATURE LONG S T FB06; F; 0073 0074; # LATIN SMALL LIGATURE ST which seems rather straightforward... /Kent K Den 2011-09-10 01:25, skrev "Karl Williamson" : >

Re: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

On 09/09/2011 02:36 PM, Kent Karlsson wrote: Den 2011-09-09 21:24, skrev "Karl Williamson": On 07/06/2011 04:23 PM, Ken Whistler wrote: I'm not sure whether the FB05/FB06 instance is important enough to add or not. Neither of those compabitility ligatures should ordinarily be used in text,

Re: ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

I was talking about purely typographic ligatures, in particular ligatures used because the glyphs (normally spaced) would otherwise overlap in an unpleasing manner. If the glyphs don't overlap (or there is extra spacing, which is quite ugly in itself if used in "normal" text), no need to use a (p

ligature usage - WAS: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Pardon my asking, as this is not my specialty: There are several other ligatures that *should* be formed (automatically) by "run of the mill" fonts: for instance the "fj" ligature, just to mention one that I find particularly important (and that does not have a compatibility code point). About

Re: How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

Den 2011-09-09 21:24, skrev "Karl Williamson" : > On 07/06/2011 04:23 PM, Ken Whistler wrote: >> I'm not sure whether the FB05/FB06 instance is important enough to add >> or not. Neither of those compabitility ligatures should ordinarily be used >> in text, anyway ... >> >> --Ken > > I'm won

How do we find out what assigned code points aren't normally used in text?

On 07/06/2011 04:23 PM, Ken Whistler wrote: I'm not sure whether the FB05/FB06 instance is important enough to add or not. Neither of those compabitility ligatures should ordinarily be used in text, anyway ... --Ken I'm wondering what other characters might not ordinarily be used in text, or