bill...the idea of beating at all is disgusting..merle
Merle,
The 'rule of thumb' is that you should not beat your wife with a stick that is
thicker than your thumb. That is an old English law and the origin of the term
'rule of thumb'.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle
Merle,
The 'rule of thumb' is that you should not beat your wife with a stick that is
thicker than your thumb. That is an old English law and the origin of the term
'rule of thumb'.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â
> meaning what bill?. clarific
Merle,
This post was directed primarily to Edgar. He and I like to discuss such
things.
None of this is really important or a pre-requisite to zen practice.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â what a mouthful...all about what is real and what is not..je
what a mouthful...all about what is real and what is not..jesus... what till
dementia gets ya..what's real then?..merle
Edgar,
I got up this morning, had a cup of tea and settled in to watch CNN 360 when a
neighbor had an emergency which captured my attention so I am just now able to
at
Edgar,
I got up this morning, had a cup of tea and settled in to watch CNN 360 when a
neighbor had an emergency which captured my attention so I am just now able to
attend to your post.
I'm feeling very generous this morning so I will forgo the usual 'tough love'
and concentrate instead on 'ku
Edgar,
Thanks for this post. I read it over hastily but will read it over more
thoroughly in the [my] morning, and will respond as appropriate.
Good Night...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill!
>
> Realty is what exists in the present moment. It includes Buddha
Bill!
Realty is what exists in the present moment. It includes Buddha Nature and
everything including all the forms and any illusions that exist in the present
moment by manifesting Buddha Nature. But the fundamental reality of all these
forms is Buddha Nature only.
Illusions are the differenc
JMJM,
Well you have succeeded, at least with me. I often times think you are so
wishy-washy you are nobody...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> You are still trying to show me that you are somebody. Sorry.
>
> I have come to realized that
Edgar,
I've yet to see a set of succinct definitions of what you mean by 'reality' and
'illusions'. How about taking the list I posted and tell us what your
definitions are?
And try to keep the definitions to a couple sentences.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
On 9/5/2012 8:26 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
> I must say this whole line of discussion has been profoundly
> disappointing to me.
A bowl full of rice
A bowl full of emptiness
A bowl full of shit
KG
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recent
we are the everyman...merle
Merle
www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
From: Anthony Wu
To: "Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Friday, 7 September 2012 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: clarification of the bowl
JMJM,
Bill! (not Bill) is always somebod
JMJM,
Bill! (not Bill) is always somebody. You are also somebody by claiming you are
nobody. Good argument.
Anthony
From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM）
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2012, 22:46
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: clarification of the bowl
Hi Bill,
You are still trying to show me that you are somebody. Sorry.
I have come to realized that only when we realized that we are truly
nobody, then we could be everybody. Then we see the wisdom in everything.
jm
On 9/5/2012 11:31 PM, Bill! wrote:
JMJM,
Thanks for your post. I also
ED,
I've been trying to do just that in almost every one of my posts since I've
been here but apparently not well enough...
:-(
Edgar
On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:41 AM, ED wrote:
>
>
>
> Edgar,
>
> What you mean by 'reality' is different from what Bill! means by 'reality'.
> In a recent post,
Edgar,
What you mean by 'reality' is different from what Bill! means by
'reality'. In a recent post, Bill! has stated in some detail the meaning
he attaches to the word 'reality. You may want to define what you mean
by 'reality'. Then, we may be able to see how and why you two are in
disagre
Bill!
Whoh now Bill! It's YOU that is telling Merle TO run out on the street without
looking because it is YOU than claims that reality has no logical structure and
thus if Merle gets run over by a bus it's all in her mind as an illusion and
not reality.
It's ME that is telling Merle, and to t
Bill!
I'm not "patronizing" you but I do assume you mean what you say. Should I not?
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 11:09 PM, Bill! wrote:
> Edgar,
>
> Please don't patronize me.
>
> We have been talking in metaphors and my post and statmemts are just a
> continuation of that. When I say 'after
@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Bill!
Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2012, 6:11
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: clarification of the bowl
Hello Bill and all,
Thank you for responding. If I may share some perspectives
Some of us grew up as cactus in the desert. Some of us grew up as
orchid in a pot
bill i understand where you and edgar are coming from... edgar has a point and
so do you... merle
JMJM,
You sense correctly. I am trying to 'help' Merle by disagreeing with Edgar.
It's the same as if Edgar told Merle to run out into the street without looking
and I disagreed with his
JMJM,
Thanks for your post. I also posted something recently that you probably had
not read before you posted this. That post mirrors some of what you say, only
refers to style rather than perspective.
Thanks...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ wrote:
>
> Hello
Hello Bill and all,
Thank you for responding. If I may share some perspectives
Some of us grew up as cactus in the desert. Some of us grew up as
orchid in a pot. One can not truly experience the other. No one truly
qualify to judge another. Yet our ego still do.
The practice of Chan
tellectually, then much of it's humour is lost.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Kristopher Grey
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 5 September 2012, 14:20
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: clarification of the bowl
>
>
> Â
> Such is the nature of koans.
>
&
JMJM,
You sense correctly. I am trying to 'help' Merle by disagreeing with Edgar.
It's the same as if Edgar told Merle to run out into the street without looking
and I disagreed with his advice and told her so.
I am not a teacher though and I've given up trying to intervene. Merle's a big
g
They're not 'delusions', they are accounts of 'experience'. They are writing
using logic in an attempt to get you to understand my experience, but I
obviously am not doing a very good job.
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Kristopher,
>
> You keep making excuses for Bill
Edgar,
Please don't patronize me.
We have been talking in metaphors and my post and statmemts are just a
continuation of that. When I say 'after enlightenment you do not need to eat'
I am extending the metaphor of the rice gruel and bowl. I'll say it a little
plainer for you: 'After enlight
yes so true edgar..merle
Read Lao Tse. The bowl's usefulness is in its emptiness...
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Bill! wrote:
> --BfD3b3XoZLrm8ULEs65dKkxGL0L4HCs5O3qrWRW
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Edgar,
>
> Followi
Bill!,
Never doubted you!
Mike
From: Bill!
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 5 September 2012, 15:01
Subject: [Zen] Re: clarification of the bowl
Mike,
You're absolutely right. I plead guilty...but I did as you noticed state all
Such is your position.
KG
On 9/5/2012 12:41 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Kristopher,
Total nonsense in your second sentence...
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
Of the two of us, only you claim to know know Bill!'s delusions.
What's your excuse?
If there is no attac
Kristopher,
Total nonsense in your second sentence...
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
>
> Of the two of us, only you claim to know know Bill!'s delusions. What's your
> excuse?
>
> If there is no attachment to a position, there is no disagreement, there are
> only
Of the two of us, only you claim to know know Bill!'s delusions. What's
your excuse?
If there is no attachment to a position, there is no disagreement, there
are only apparent differences in expression.
KG
On 9/5/2012 11:39 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Kristopher,
You keep making excuses for
I sense Bill's continual insistence of his disagreement. Bill! is
attached to it. Especially when Bill! is trying so hard to "help" Merle
by disagreeing with Edgar. LOL
:-)
On 9/5/2012 8:39 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Kristopher,
You keep making excuses for Bill!'s delusions!
Disagreement i
Kristopher,
You keep making excuses for Bill!'s delusions!
Disagreement is not "a form of suffering" unless you are attached to it...
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
>
> Comfortably stuck in cause and effect, you ignore the sledgehammer!
>
> It appears to me that
Comfortably stuck in cause and effect, you ignore the sledgehammer!
It appears to me that Bill! is not denying food is required to maintain
a body, that forms appear to maintain forms (no independent origination)
- he is denying this assumption of "have to" - this neediness that goes
with it.
O, for God's sakes Bill!
You are certifiable! I've never heard such metaphysical New Age nonsense and
certainly never expected it to come from your lips. Enlightened people
don't need to eat! Sheesh!
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 8:38 AM, Bill! wrote:
> Edgar (no longer and Merle),
>
>
Bill!,
Read Lao Tse. The bowl's usefulness is in its emptiness...
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Bill! wrote:
> --BfD3b3XoZLrm8ULEs65dKkxGL0L4HCs5O3qrWRW
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Edgar,
>
> Following the analogy, whe
Reminds me of the
> > Watts quote where he states that spirituality in Christianity is washing
> > the dishes while thinking about God. Spirituality in Zen isjust washing the
> > dishes.
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > _
nds me of the Watts quote where
> he states that spirituality in Christianity is washing the dishes while
> thinking about God. Spirituality in Zen isjust washing the dishes.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> From: Bill!
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups
So simple, right up to that seemly part at the end anyway. ;)
On 9/5/2012 7:48 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Bill! and Merle,
Even after enlightenment you still have to eat. Zen doesn't consist of
washing your bowl and keeping your bowl empty (of information). Zen
consists of using information beca
It's not the bowl, or it's fullness, it's those skinny hungry ghost
necks! *L*
KG
On 9/5/2012 7:35 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Bill! and Merle,
It is impossible to empty your bowl. Empty it and reality immediately
refills it with Buddha Nature...
The bowl is ALWAYS full!
Edgar
On Sep 5, 20
Edgar (no longer and Merle),
After enlightenment you do not have to eat. You realize food is not essential.
You may choose to eat, but you don't have to.
Illusions do vanish upon realization of Buddha Nature. You may choose to bring
them back or they may reappear without your choice. But af
Edgar,
Following the analogy, when you empty your bowl you find you no longer need a
bowl. It is THEN that you can experience Buddha Nature. You do not experience
Buddha Nature in the bowl.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill! and Merle,
>
> It is imposs
Bill! and Merle,
Even after enlightenment you still have to eat. Zen doesn't consist of washing
your bowl and keeping your bowl empty (of information). Zen consists of using
information because even after realization you are still living in the world of
forms. Illusions don't vanish upon realiz
Bill! and Merle,
It is impossible to empty your bowl. Empty it and reality immediately refills
it with Buddha Nature...
The bowl is ALWAYS full!
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 1:49 AM, Bill! wrote:
> Merle,
>
> I forgot to respond to your second question.
>
> You may share your bowl with others
Bill! and Merle,
It's not the size of the tool but how you use it! But it helps to have a big
one too!
:-)
Edgar
On Sep 5, 2012, at 1:47 AM, Bill! wrote:
> Merle,
>
> That's an interesting question.
>
> I'm going way out on a limb here but I actually believe the size of your bowl
> does ma
ristianity is washing the dishes while thinking about God.
Spirituality in Zen isjust washing the dishes.
Mike
From: Bill!
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 5 September 2012, 10:02
Subject: [Zen] Re: clarification of the bowl
Merle,
A long, lo
Merle,
I hope I've addressed this question in my previous long post about rice gruel,
bowls, knowledge, illusions, attachments, zen and Buddha Nature.
One clarification for you: I hold Jesus to be an enlightened teacher
(Bodhisattva) so I use quotes from him as well as from Buddha - or in fact
Merle,
A long, long time ago in a reply to one of your pleas for help to Edgar and
after reading you two go back and forth and Edgar filling your head with all
sorts of advice I quoted a story associated with a zen koan. The koan is
entitled WASH YOUR BOWLS and is Case #7 in THE GATELESS GATE
bill..i know that bible quote well,,, edgar paints it well for me..i do not
understand what you mean by the bowls or the bible quote..how is it
zen?...merle
Merle,
That's an interesting question.
I'm going way out on a limb here but I actually believe the size of your bowl
does matter
bill..that is your take on this..as i see it edgar... says there are no
bowls..there just is... and that is zen...zen is zen is zen..what's with the
bowls anyway..you seem to be obsessed with them..merle
Merle,
I forgot to respond to your second question.
You may share your bowl with others.
Merle,
I forgot to respond to your second question.
You may share your bowl with others. Edgar is trying to share a lot of the
contents of his bowl with you. The problem is when he does that the contents
of both of your bowls just get more full, and sooner of later if you want to
realize Bud
Merle,
That's an interesting question.
I'm going way out on a limb here but I actually believe the size of your bowl
does matter. The larger the bowl you have (like Edgar) the more rice gruel it
takes to fill it up. And if many cases people with very large bowls never get
full. They always
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