BW> Eje, BW> Isn't this only true if the other end does the same ? Else you could end up BW> with a non-reciprocal path with (say) fade margin of +5dB in one direction BW> and -3dB in the BW> other. This could mean rates of 11Mb one way (from "amp" end), 5.5Mb in the BW> other, negotiating to the worst (or worse still, switching ro retrying) and BW> the installer wondering why the amp has "no" effect ?
I always assume that you use max allowed EIRP on the base station end such as say a 23dB radio into a 13dB antenna (36dB which is the limit for ptmp in FCC territory). BW> I think we have a different issue in UK. Not sure about you guys but the BW> regs here are about EIRP. So if you crank up the antenna gain you should BW> crank down the radio o/p power for +20dBm EIRP. High gain aerials are still BW> useful for the receive side though. The legal use of amps is very limited BW> here, as you can't get the radio o/p LOW enough. Ironic, as you guys are BW> seeking higher power radios, we're seeking lower power radios. BW> bw In UK things are a bit different since your limited to 20dBm EIRP no 24dB grids for you guys. 16dB antenna would mean 4dB radio gain. Which means you have to run very small pops to get the signal through. It's sort of ironic yes. But consider that we can do 48dB on the CPE and and 36dB at the base station end. Due to physical size anything much larger then 24dB antenna is not really possible which means to reach our maximum limit we need 24dB radios. With the sB radios only being 17dB that means we are 7dB short of what we maximum legally could use. With a 17dB base station that means you would need a 19dB antenna to reach the max legal limit of 36dB for base station. I don't know about you but some in the US might have seen the sizes 16dB sectors are then just imagine yourself a 19dB that would mean you would have to enlarge the antenna 100% so going from aprox 4ft to 8ft. Another problem when going so high on the sector/omni antenna is your beamwidth gets REALLY narrow. A 16dB sector have 7deg beam so you don't want to use anything larger then that.. So to reach max power we need at least a 100mw radio (20dB) and a 16dB sector. With a 12dB sector (2' long and gives 18deg beam width) you would need a 24dB radio (which means 250mW radio). AMPs causes extra noise injection and other bad things so personally I would rather use a 23dB radio and miss that 1 extra dB in power then use a 250mW AMP. IMO sB should NOT try to built a one fits all solution. Because the requirements and restrictions are SOOO extremely different in North America and in Europe. What you need have have to live by don't work for us and what we want don't work for you.. Many other companies like for example Alvarion builds one set or units for the North American market and one for the European market. They have slightly different specs and are tailored for the respective market. I think it's for example Alvarion that offers a diversity antenna unit in the European market where one antenna port is for receive only and one is for transmit only. This way you can have a 24dB receive antenna and say a 16dB transmit antenna with 4dB radio power. This means you get a total of 40dB antenna gain on a link just to get that little extra edge. - Eje BW> ----- Original Message ----- BW> From: "Eje Gustafsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> BW> To: "Nimesh D. Parikh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> BW> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 5:51 AM BW> Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> I will have to agree with you there that smaller cells (no more then >> 4-5 miles) are better solution in the long run. Because with large >> cells you have to do high installs on the CPE end to get a good >> signal. >> But higher power on the radio sure helps out in many situations and >> allow you to have to avoid the extremely large, bulky and ugly 24dB >> grid dishes. If one can do say the 16dB Vagi's or maybe 19dB grids >> that are not so large then everyone is happier. But to drop from 24dB >> antenna to say a 16dB antenna means you have to get 8dB more power >> somewhere so going from a 17dB radio to say a 23dB radio then is >> essential because then your total EIRP still is close to the same and >> the link you could make with the 24dB antenna you now can do with a >> 16dB antenna... >> >> Best regards, >> Eje "Aya" Gustafsson mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> The Family Entertainment Network http://www.fament.com >> Phone : 620-231-7777 Fax : 240-376-7272 >> - Your Full Time Professionals - >> Online Store http://www.wisp-router.com/ >> MikroTik, Star-OS, PACWireless, EnGenius, RF Industries >> -- >> >> NDP> Joe, >> NDP> You have all our attention. We agree with the higher power BW> requirement >> NDP> and working towards designing it in our next generation radio BW> platforms. >> NDP> Unfortunately it is not easy to make this change in the existing BW> radio >> NDP> card being used in all our products. >> >> NDP> This is slightly OT. I know many of you try to make long shots to BW> cover >> NDP> the large areas. But having seen many different deployment BW> strategies, I >> NDP> think smaller cell site architecture is better. >> >> NDP> Thanks. >> >> NDP> Nimesh >> >> >> >> NDP> -----Original Message----- >> NDP> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> NDP> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Email >> NDP> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 6:32 AM >> NDP> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> NDP> Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >> NDP> Stuart >> NDP> I know you are not responding to my post, but I made one similar >> >> NDP> I personally am trying to get smartBridges attention, because from BW> what >> NDP> I am >> NDP> hearing >> NDP> the radios are not performing as well as they could. I like BW> smartBridges >> NDP> and >> NDP> have tried to >> NDP> stay the course, but with the testing we are doing I am not satisfied >> NDP> with >> NDP> the power the >> NDP> radios are putting out. >> >> NDP> Whether amps would help or not, I personally do not know, but I am BW> going >> NDP> to >> NDP> try one >> NDP> smartBridges is coming out with the XO and XO2, why not up the power BW> so >> NDP> we >> NDP> could use >> NDP> small antennas on the CPe(this is the big cost). >> >> NDP> My observations >> >> NDP> joe k >> NDP> -----Original Message----- >> NDP> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> NDP> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Pierce >> NDP> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:31 PM >> NDP> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> NDP> Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >> >> NDP> Teletronics had their all-in-one AP hotspot with a poe powered amp >> NDP> inside. >> NDP> But this is a Smartbridges list. >> >> NDP> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >> NDP> From: Rick Kunze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> NDP> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> NDP> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:00:06 -0800 >> >> >>Not sure exactly what you mean here, as the amp is on the RF side, not >> NDP> the >> >>Ethernet side. What I need is one that can go between an ABO and an >> >>antenna, outdoors, where the LMR run is only a couple feet. >> >> >> >>Rk >> >> >> >>At 08:49 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: >> >>>We've been thinking about carying the Luxul POE amp. But we were not >> NDP> sure >> >>>what the interest level is. Here's a good time to ask. Is there any >> >>>interest in a POE powered amp that would need to be protected from the >> NDP> weather? >> >>> >> >>>Mike B >> >>>Electro-comm >> >>> >> >>>Patrick wrote: >> >>>>Earl, >> >>>>Does the RF Linx have POE power? I can't seem to find any from them >> NDP> that >> >>>>aren't power over coax.... >> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Earl Campbell >> >>>>>To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:52 PM >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >>>>> >> >>>>>Amps can be a curse also. The repeater becomes what we call an >> NDP> alligator >> >>>>>mouth. Everyone in 30 mi radius can hear it bit the AP can't hear >> NDP> the >> >>>>>CPE's. So be careful with amps and I recommend RF Linx. Good price >> NDP> and >> >>>>>they have filtering in both the TX and RX side. >> >>>>>Earl UpHi.net >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>-------Original Message------- >> >>>>> >> >>>>>From: >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>>>>Date: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 01:41:24 PM >> >>>>>To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >>>>> >> >>>>>Not entirely correct. The amp must be part of a CERTIFIED SYSTEM. A >> NDP> number >> >>>>>of manufacturers provide same--YDI and others. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>JH >> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >> >>>>>From: "Curt Perryman" >> >>>>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>>>>To: >> <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 11:29 AM >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> > Amps are not authorized by the FCC and in fact are specifically >> >>>>> prohibited >> >>>>> > in the Rules. Use of one would void the type acceptance. >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > At 10:14 AM 11/05/2003 -0500, you wrote: >> >>>>> > >I want to put an amp on a pop I have for testing a possible >> NDP> project. >> >>>>> Does >> >>>>> > >anyone know an amp that isn't powered over the rf-cable like the >> NDP> ydi >> >>>>>outdoor >> >>>>> > >units? I have an APPO up the tower and wonder how people are >> NDP> putting >> NDP> the >> >>>>> > >amp in between the radio and antenna. Are any poe powered? I >> NDP> wouldn't >> >>>>>mind >> >>>>> > >making another cat5 run, I just don't want to run rf-cable and >> >>>>> induce the >> >>>>> > >loss. >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > >Thanks, >> >>>>> > >Patrick >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > >The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >>>>> > >To Join: >> NDP> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>>>> (in the body type subscribe >> >>>>> > >smartBridges <yournickname> >> >>>>> > >To Remove: >> NDP> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>>>> (in the body type unsubscribe >> >>>>> > >smartBridges) >> >>>>> > >Archives: >> NDP> <http://archives.part-15.org>http://archives.part-15.org >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >>>>> > To Join: >> >>>>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> NDP> (in >> >>>>> the body type subscribe >> >>>>>smartBridges <yournickname> >> >>>>> > To Remove: >> NDP> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>>>> (in the body type unsubscribe >> >>>>>smartBridges) >> >>>>> > Archives: >> NDP> <http://archives.part-15.org>http://archives.part-15.org >> >>>>> >> >>>>>The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >>>>>To Join: >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> NDP> (in >> >>>>>the body type subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> >> >>>>>To Remove: >> >>>>><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> NDP> (in >> >>>>>the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) >> >>>>>Archives: >> >>>>><http://archives.part-15.org>http://archives.part-15.org >> >>>>>. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>____________________________________________________ >> >>>>><http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9> >> >>>>>420f4d5.gif >> >>>>><http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9> >> NDP> IncrediMail - >> >>>>>Email has finally evolved - >> >>>>><http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9>Click Here >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> NDP> --- >> NDP> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus By Avolve.net] >> >> NDP> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> NDP> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe >> NDP> smartBridges <yournickname> >> NDP> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe >> NDP> smartBridges) >> NDP> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> >> >> NDP> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> NDP> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe >> NDP> smartBridges <yournickname> >> NDP> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe >> NDP> smartBridges) >> NDP> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> >> NDP> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> NDP> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type >> NDP> subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> >> NDP> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe BW> smartBridges) >> NDP> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> >> -- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe BW> smartBridges <yournickname> >> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe BW> smartBridges) >> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> BW> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List BW> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type BW> subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> BW> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) BW> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org -- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) Archives: http://archives.part-15.org
