No the 16dB sector is what I use at the base station and use 16dB Vagi antennas or 19 or 24dB grid dishes at customer premises.
Best regards, Eje "Aya" Gustafsson mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The Family Entertainment Network http://www.fament.com Phone : 620-231-7777 Fax : 240-376-7272 - Your Full Time Professionals - Online Store http://www.wisp-router.com/ MikroTik, Star-OS, PACWireless, EnGenius, RF Industries -- BW> Thanks for such a detailed reply. Very interesting. This might sound daft, BW> but does this mean that you guys use a 16 db Sector at cust premises (at BW> least with single antenna arangements such as sB) in order to maintain a BW> reciprocal path ? BW> bw BW> ----- Original Message ----- BW> From: "Eje Gustafsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> BW> To: "Brian Winter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> BW> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 8:35 PM BW> Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> BW> Eje, >> BW> Isn't this only true if the other end does the same ? Else you could BW> end up >> BW> with a non-reciprocal path with (say) fade margin of +5dB in one BW> direction >> BW> and -3dB in the >> BW> other. This could mean rates of 11Mb one way (from "amp" end), 5.5Mb BW> in the >> BW> other, negotiating to the worst (or worse still, switching ro BW> retrying) and >> BW> the installer wondering why the amp has "no" effect ? >> >> I always assume that you use max allowed EIRP on the base station end >> such as say a 23dB radio into a 13dB antenna (36dB which is the limit >> for ptmp in FCC territory). >> >> BW> I think we have a different issue in UK. Not sure about you guys but BW> the >> BW> regs here are about EIRP. So if you crank up the antenna gain you BW> should >> BW> crank down the radio o/p power for +20dBm EIRP. High gain aerials are BW> still >> BW> useful for the receive side though. The legal use of amps is very BW> limited >> BW> here, as you can't get the radio o/p LOW enough. Ironic, as you guys BW> are >> BW> seeking higher power radios, we're seeking lower power radios. >> BW> bw >> >> In UK things are a bit different since your limited to 20dBm EIRP no >> 24dB grids for you guys. 16dB antenna would mean 4dB radio gain. >> Which means you have to run very small pops to get the signal through. >> >> It's sort of ironic yes. But consider that we can do 48dB on the CPE >> and and 36dB at the base station end. Due to physical size anything >> much larger then 24dB antenna is not really possible which means to >> reach our maximum limit we need 24dB radios. With the sB radios only >> being 17dB that means we are 7dB short of what we maximum legally >> could use. >> With a 17dB base station that means you would need a 19dB antenna to >> reach the max legal limit of 36dB for base station. I don't know about >> you but some in the US might have seen the sizes 16dB sectors are then >> just imagine yourself a 19dB that would mean you would have to enlarge >> the antenna 100% so going from aprox 4ft to 8ft. >> Another problem when going so high on the sector/omni antenna is your >> beamwidth gets REALLY narrow. A 16dB sector have 7deg beam so you >> don't want to use anything larger then that.. >> So to reach max power we need at least a 100mw radio (20dB) and a 16dB >> sector. With a 12dB sector (2' long and gives 18deg beam width) you >> would need a 24dB radio (which means 250mW radio). >> >> AMPs causes extra noise injection and other bad things so personally I >> would rather use a 23dB radio and miss that 1 extra dB in power then >> use a 250mW AMP. >> >> IMO sB should NOT try to built a one fits all solution. Because the >> requirements and restrictions are SOOO extremely different in North >> America and in Europe. What you need have have to live by don't work >> for us and what we want don't work for you.. >> >> Many other companies like for example Alvarion builds one set or units >> for the North American market and one for the European market. They >> have slightly different specs and are tailored for the respective >> market. >> I think it's for example Alvarion that offers a diversity antenna unit >> in the European market where one antenna port is for receive only and >> one is for transmit only. This way you can have a 24dB receive antenna >> and say a 16dB transmit antenna with 4dB radio power. >> This means you get a total of 40dB antenna gain on a link just to get >> that little extra edge. >> >> - Eje >> >> BW> ----- Original Message ----- >> BW> From: "Eje Gustafsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> BW> To: "Nimesh D. Parikh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> BW> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 5:51 AM >> BW> Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >> >> >> I will have to agree with you there that smaller cells (no more then >> >> 4-5 miles) are better solution in the long run. Because with large >> >> cells you have to do high installs on the CPE end to get a good >> >> signal. >> >> But higher power on the radio sure helps out in many situations and >> >> allow you to have to avoid the extremely large, bulky and ugly 24dB >> >> grid dishes. If one can do say the 16dB Vagi's or maybe 19dB grids >> >> that are not so large then everyone is happier. But to drop from 24dB >> >> antenna to say a 16dB antenna means you have to get 8dB more power >> >> somewhere so going from a 17dB radio to say a 23dB radio then is >> >> essential because then your total EIRP still is close to the same and >> >> the link you could make with the 24dB antenna you now can do with a >> >> 16dB antenna... >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Eje "Aya" Gustafsson mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> The Family Entertainment Network http://www.fament.com >> >> Phone : 620-231-7777 Fax : 240-376-7272 >> >> - Your Full Time Professionals - >> >> Online Store http://www.wisp-router.com/ >> >> MikroTik, Star-OS, PACWireless, EnGenius, RF Industries >> >> -- >> >> >> >> NDP> Joe, >> >> NDP> You have all our attention. We agree with the higher power >> BW> requirement >> >> NDP> and working towards designing it in our next generation radio >> BW> platforms. >> >> NDP> Unfortunately it is not easy to make this change in the existing >> BW> radio >> >> NDP> card being used in all our products. >> >> >> >> NDP> This is slightly OT. I know many of you try to make long shots to >> BW> cover >> >> NDP> the large areas. But having seen many different deployment >> BW> strategies, I >> >> NDP> think smaller cell site architecture is better. >> >> >> >> NDP> Thanks. >> >> >> >> NDP> Nimesh >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> NDP> -----Original Message----- >> >> NDP> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> NDP> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Email >> >> NDP> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 6:32 AM >> >> NDP> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> NDP> Subject: RE: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >> >> >> NDP> Stuart >> >> NDP> I know you are not responding to my post, but I made one similar >> >> >> >> NDP> I personally am trying to get smartBridges attention, because from >> BW> what >> >> NDP> I am >> >> NDP> hearing >> >> NDP> the radios are not performing as well as they could. I like >> BW> smartBridges >> >> NDP> and >> >> NDP> have tried to >> >> NDP> stay the course, but with the testing we are doing I am not BW> satisfied >> >> NDP> with >> >> NDP> the power the >> >> NDP> radios are putting out. >> >> >> >> NDP> Whether amps would help or not, I personally do not know, but I am >> BW> going >> >> NDP> to >> >> NDP> try one >> >> NDP> smartBridges is coming out with the XO and XO2, why not up the BW> power >> BW> so >> >> NDP> we >> >> NDP> could use >> >> NDP> small antennas on the CPe(this is the big cost). >> >> >> >> NDP> My observations >> >> >> >> NDP> joe k >> >> NDP> -----Original Message----- >> >> NDP> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> NDP> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Pierce >> >> NDP> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 1:31 PM >> >> NDP> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> NDP> Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >> >> >> >> >> NDP> Teletronics had their all-in-one AP hotspot with a poe powered amp >> >> NDP> inside. >> >> NDP> But this is a Smartbridges list. >> >> >> >> NDP> ---------- Original Message >> ---------------------------------- >> >> NDP> From: Rick Kunze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> NDP> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> NDP> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:00:06 -0800 >> >> >> >> >>Not sure exactly what you mean here, as the amp is on the RF side, BW> not >> >> NDP> the >> >> >>Ethernet side. What I need is one that can go between an ABO and an >> >> >>antenna, outdoors, where the LMR run is only a couple feet. >> >> >> >> >> >>Rk >> >> >> >> >> >>At 08:49 AM 11/6/2003, you wrote: >> >> >>>We've been thinking about carying the Luxul POE amp. But we were BW> not >> >> NDP> sure >> >> >>>what the interest level is. Here's a good time to ask. Is there BW> any >> >> >>>interest in a POE powered amp that would need to be protected from BW> the >> >> NDP> weather? >> >> >>> >> >> >>>Mike B >> >> >>>Electro-comm >> >> >>> >> >> >>>Patrick wrote: >> >> >>>>Earl, >> >> >>>>Does the RF Linx have POE power? I can't seem to find any from them >> >> NDP> that >> >> >>>>aren't power over coax.... >> >> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>>>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Earl Campbell >> >> >>>>>To: >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:52 PM >> >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>Amps can be a curse also. The repeater becomes what we call an >> >> NDP> alligator >> >> >>>>>mouth. Everyone in 30 mi radius can hear it bit the AP can't hear >> >> NDP> the >> >> >>>>>CPE's. So be careful with amps and I recommend RF Linx. Good price >> >> NDP> and >> >> >>>>>they have filtering in both the TX and RX side. >> >> >>>>>Earl UpHi.net >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>-------Original Message------- >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>From: >> >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >>>>>Date: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 01:41:24 PM >> >> >>>>>To: >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>Not entirely correct. The amp must be part of a CERTIFIED SYSTEM. BW> A >> >> NDP> number >> >> >>>>>of manufacturers provide same--YDI and others. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>JH >> >> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>>>From: "Curt Perryman" >> >> >> >>>>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> >>>>>To: >> >> <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 11:29 AM >> >> >>>>>Subject: Re: [smartBridges] Amp Question >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> > Amps are not authorized by the FCC and in fact are specifically >> >> >>>>> prohibited >> >> >>>>> > in the Rules. Use of one would void the type acceptance. >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> > At 10:14 AM 11/05/2003 -0500, you wrote: >> >> >>>>> > >I want to put an amp on a pop I have for testing a possible >> >> NDP> project. >> >> >>>>> Does >> >> >>>>> > >anyone know an amp that isn't powered over the rf-cable like BW> the >> >> NDP> ydi >> >> >>>>>outdoor >> >> >>>>> > >units? I have an APPO up the tower and wonder how people are >> >> NDP> putting >> >> NDP> the >> >> >>>>> > >amp in between the radio and antenna. Are any poe powered? I >> >> NDP> wouldn't >> >> >>>>>mind >> >> >>>>> > >making another cat5 run, I just don't want to run rf-cable and >> >> >>>>> induce the >> >> >>>>> > >loss. >> >> >>>>> > > >> >> >>>>> > >Thanks, >> >> >>>>> > >Patrick >> >> >>>>> > > >> >> >>>>> > > >> >> >>>>> > >The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >> >>>>> > >To Join: >> >> NDP> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >>>>> (in the body type subscribe >> >> >>>>> > >smartBridges <yournickname> >> >> >>>>> > >To Remove: >> >> NDP> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >>>>> (in the body type unsubscribe >> >> >>>>> > >smartBridges) >> >> >>>>> > >Archives: >> >> NDP> <http://archives.part-15.org>http://archives.part-15.org >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> > The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >> >>>>> > To Join: >> >> >>>>> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> NDP> (in >> >> >>>>> the body type subscribe >> >> >>>>>smartBridges <yournickname> >> >> >>>>> > To Remove: >> >> NDP> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >>>>> (in the body type unsubscribe >> >> >>>>>smartBridges) >> >> >>>>> > Archives: >> >> NDP> <http://archives.part-15.org>http://archives.part-15.org >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >> >>>>>To Join: >> >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> NDP> (in >> >> >>>>>the body type subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> >> >> >>>>>To Remove: >> >> >>>>><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> NDP> (in >> >> >>>>>the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) >> >> >>>>>Archives: >> >> >>>>><http://archives.part-15.org>http://archives.part-15.org >> >> >>>>>. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>____________________________________________________ >> >> >>>>><http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9> >> >> >>>>>420f4d5.gif >> >> >>>>><http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9> >> >> NDP> IncrediMail - >> >> >>>>>Email has finally evolved - >> >> >> >>>>><http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=309&lang=9>Click >> Here >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> NDP> --- >> >> NDP> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus By Avolve.net] >> >> >> >> NDP> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >> NDP> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe >> >> NDP> smartBridges <yournickname> >> >> NDP> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type BW> unsubscribe >> >> NDP> smartBridges) >> >> NDP> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> >> >> >> >> >> NDP> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >> NDP> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe >> >> NDP> smartBridges <yournickname> >> >> NDP> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type BW> unsubscribe >> >> NDP> smartBridges) >> >> NDP> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> >> >> >> NDP> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >> NDP> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type >> >> NDP> subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> >> >> NDP> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type BW> unsubscribe >> BW> smartBridges) >> >> NDP> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> >> >> >> -- >> >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> >> >> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> >> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe >> BW> smartBridges <yournickname> >> >> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe >> BW> smartBridges) >> >> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> >> >> >> BW> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> BW> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type >> BW> subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> >> BW> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe BW> smartBridges) >> BW> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> >> -- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List >> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe BW> smartBridges <yournickname> >> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe BW> smartBridges) >> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org >> BW> The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List BW> To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type BW> subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> BW> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) BW> Archives: http://archives.part-15.org -- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] The PART-15.ORG smartBridges Discussion List To Join: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type subscribe smartBridges <yournickname> To Remove: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (in the body type unsubscribe smartBridges) Archives: http://archives.part-15.org
