Thank you for the information. Mario Berrios, P.E. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 8:40 PM Subject: Re: max velocity
Mario, The 20 fps limit was never in NFPA 13. FM introduced it into their standards in the late 70's to limit foolish designs in the then new grid systems that eliminated any tolerance for operating additional sprinklers on a branch line.. It only applied to branch lines in grids. It was proposed to NFPA 13 and rejected because it was deemed not needed in addition to the 1.2 shape factor used in hydraulic designs. It ultimately caused more confusion than it was worth to FM customers, so FM eliminated it several years ago. There is nothing inherently incorrect or unfair about designing a system with high velocities. So long as the design is (and remains) correct for the occupancy, there is no problem. It's just another example of the existing process that cuts the end-user out of the decision process and takes the decision of whether cheaper installation is actually cost effective away from him. Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Mark, >Several years ago I wrote several e-mails to the Forum on this subject; they >may be in the Archives. In the past 20 fps was indicated in NFPA 13; slowly >thru the years that 20 fps was taken out; if a limit is not given then anarchy >, chaos will happen. I have reviewed plans with 56 fps and the contractor is >right ,nfpa 13 says no limits in velocity. The statement about good design , >conservative design, prudent design is not read. >For the same job if a contractor calculates the pipe with 20 fps , other >contractor calculates with 30 fps and another with 50 fps; the contractor with >50 fps will win the bid. Is that correct? is that fair? >Mario Berrios,P.E. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [email protected] >Sent: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 1:16 PM >Subject: RE: max velocity > > >Brilliant! > >It will take several Guinesses to get through this I'm sure. > >LMAO, >Steve Leyton >Protection Design & Consulting > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Wednesday, January >10, 2007 10:04 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: max velocity > >Because water faster than 20fps can quickly get out of control and drown >people in nursing homes. Slower water is less threatening. > >But seriously, why place a limit of 20? There are times that through a >particular section of pipe where the velocity may exceed that. It makes >little sense to have to increase a 5ft piece of pipe because the >velocity in it may have hit 30fps. You've got to use some common sense >and good engineering judgment, balancing a practical design AND >installation. > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection Group >Mechanical Department >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >Direct - 864.599.4102 >Fax - 864.599.8439 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.lg.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark >Sornsin >Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 12:50 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: max velocity > >Mario: > >Given all that has been said on this forum, in addition to Roland's >dissertation, I have to ask why the 20 fps limitation? > >If we engineers are going to require such a limitation, I believe we >have to be ready to defend it. (this holds true to anything we write in >our specifcations > >Mark A. Sornsin, PE >Fire Protection Engineer >Ulteig Engineers, Inc. >Fargo, ND >701.280.8591 >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:35 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: max velocity > >I recommend maximum 20 feet per second water velocity in fire sprinklers >systems . >Mario Berrios, P.E. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [email protected] >Sent: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 11:44 AM >Subject: RE: max velocity > > >NFPA 13 does not stipulate a maximum limit on velocities; some >insurances companies modify NFPA 13, such as FM, to restrict 20fps on >gridded sprinkler systems. I believe NFPA 15 does require velocities >pressures. Anyway, I was always taught that good engineering practices >restrict velocities pressures to a maximum of 32 fps in branchline >piping. > >Hope this helps. >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ivan >Cabrera >Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 4:58 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: max velocity > >Would anyone be able to give me any info on the max velocity for >sprinkler piping? If so, can you give me a code section it would be >under? > > > >Thank you, > > > >Ivan Cabrera > >Fire Plans Examiner > >Town of Gilbert > >90 E. Civic Center Drive > >Gilbert, AZ 85296 > >ph 480-503-6957 > >fax 480-497-4923 > > > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >________________________________________________________________________ >Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and >security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from >across the web, free AOL Mail and more. >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >________________________________________________________________________ >Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security >tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, >free AOL Mail and more. >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
