Paul, So you must know about the "River Rats". Next time your in the neighborhood stop by and say hello.
While we are on the subject of standpipes I have to add something to the thread for our New Jersey Engineers and Designers, which I know read the list. The New Jersey Uniform Construction Code, N.J.A.C. 5:23 MODIFIES the IBC with regards to Automatic Water Supply for Standpipe Systems as follows; N.J.A.C. 5:23-3.14 - IBC 905.2.2.1 "Automatic Water Supply: An automatic water supply is required for all standpipe systems". Exceptions: 1. Buildings equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with 903.3.1.1 (NFPA 13 System) where the highest floor is located not more then 150 feet above the lowest level of fire department vehicle access, the automatic water supply is not required to exceed the requirements of NFPA-13. 2. Dry Standpipes installed in open parking structures. I point this out because the Model IBC provides the exception for both 903.3.1.1 Systems (NFPA-13) and 903.3.1.2 (NFPA-13R) systems whereas the NJ adoption only allows the exception for NFPA-13 Systems. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Sincaglia Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: pump tricks John... Nice to hear from someone from my original home town. I lived in Fair Haven as a very young boy (across from the fire station) and both my siblings born in your fine city. Anyway... A good point on the 150 psi thing....but that can be addressed. I usually do the first round of calcs based on 150 psi. If it does not work, and I have to go higher, I do and then specify that the placard by the FDC indicate the required pump pressure. Regardless, I always talk to the FD as well as they have the authority to place the FDC...so I share the info with them. What they choose to do with it is really their problem. That said, as a fireground officer myself, I don't like automatically pumped standpipes in large part because I want to control pressures. If my guys want to use a straight stream nozzle, I only want about 50-60 psi at the tip of my line. Some quick math of 5 psi per story and a radio message to the pump operator and poof, I can have pressures where I want them at the floor I am actually on. If you were on a lower floor with a 2'1/2 line at 170 psi...ouch!! Yes you can throttle it a bit with the valves on the standpipe or the nozzle when it is flowing but when you shut down to reposition the entire hose becomes a steel rod that is next to impossible to move, particularly if you need to mover around corners. As always in this business, there is good and bad...the key issue is to be sure that when you perform your design and or propose code language that you are not providing a solution in search of an actual problem. Paul Sincaglia, P.E. Firesafety Solutions, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 6:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: pump tricks Paul, The ICC issued IFC/IBC Interpretation 33-03 on 08/16/04 with regards to IBC 905.3.1 Exception 1 which concurs with your conclusion. The interp is available on line at; http://www2.iccsafe.org/cs/interps/pdf/BU_00_53_03.pdf One thing needs addressing however and that's FDC delivery pressure. Many of not most FD SOG's provide for a 150 psi feed pressure. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Sincaglia Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: pump tricks OK... I have to say that I have learned a thing or two in this thread...but for most of it I keep thinking like a code consultant......somebody tell me I am wrong but.... IBC requires a Class III standpipe for buildings over 30 ft above the lowest level of FD access. Since the building is sprinklered, the Class III requirement is now a Class I requirement due to the IBC exception #1. Now, at 6 stories, the walking surface (floor level) of the 6th floor is almost always less than 75 ft above the lowest level of FD access....a non high rise. Now you go to NFPA 14 5.4 permits manual standpipes for this type of installation...even if in combination with a sprinkler system (See NFPA 14 7.7.3). The only "automatic" requirement in the building code is for Group A occupancies and NFPA 14 only requires it for high rises Bottom line, you can rely on the FD pumper to provide adequate pressure to the top floor....not your fire sprinkler system fire pump. This usually reduces the size of the fire pump considerably and eliminates the issue of having a pump capable of providing min 100 psi at 750-1000 gpm some 65 ft. up while still maintaining system pressure below 175 at the lowest levels at churn. Am I missing something here? I will not say that this logic always works as site conditions can make this a closer call. But an FD pumper pumping at 175 psi should have no trouble overcoming the 65 ft (30 psi) elevation loss and any friction losses with some room to spare. Paul Sincaglia, P.E. _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
