I agree with Craig.
When he and I used to work together, for industrial facilities, we
generally used two(2) diesel driven pumps due to the initial capital cost
of providing the power and tying in ahead of the main disconnect, step-down
transformers, etc. Our electrical designers and engineers also appreciated
the fact that they didn't have to jump through hoops figuring out how to
provide the additional loads, design, etc.
Of course, with commerical or institutional facilities, electric is
sometimes the only way to go.
James L.(Jim) Roberts, PE, SET
Fluor Corporation
100 Fluor Daniel Drive - C104F
Greenville, SC 29607
864.281.5149
864.281.4916(Fax)
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To
prinkler.org
<[email protected]>
09/04/2007 09:47 AM
cc
Please respond to
sprinklerforum
Subject
RE: Fire Pump
Selection - REVISED
You shouldn't consider the diesel only as a reserve pump. Many
installations use the diesel as their primary pump. Often the cost of
providing power distribution to a large electric pump makes the diesel a
cheaper and simpler choice. But you can use either one depending on
what works best for the situation and what is acceptable to your
Insurance provider and AHJ. One thing to be sure of is that while the
electric pump may be a bit cheaper than the diesel, the electric
requires a lot of other work on the electrical side that the diesel does
not. Often times depending on your site conditions, this makes the
electric installation come out as the more expensive of the two.
For your electrical service to be considered reliable you need to know
the amount of times per year that the power is interrupted as well as
the length of time for each interruption. Check the history over the
last two or three years. But if there is doubt as to the reliability of
the power source then you either have to provide a backup generator or
other secondary power source. The easier choice is using a diesel pump.
In #3 you say you don't want to buy the expensive pumps like Peerless or
Patterson. When selecting pumps for fire service please make sure they
are tested and approved by U.L (or whatever your applicable testing
agency may be) for use in fire service. Please do not just go and buy
some cheap process pump and assume it will work for fire service.
Chances are that your insurance underwriter will not accept this option.
If this installation is of great importance to the operation of the site
then redundant pumps may need to be considered. If your fire pump
failed to start for whatever reason, would the loss of this area put
your client out of business or create great harm to the area surrounding
this site?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.lg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reza
Esmaeili
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Pump Selection - REVISED
Thanks Rechard, you are great!
As a NFPA member I have asked this question from NFPA-20, I think they
will answer in couple of days, I will attach their answer here. I agree
with you over item 3-3 which is not reasonable, so you mean if I am even
less than 1% unsure about reliability of power source, I am not allowed
to use electric pumps (as main without reserved diesel) and should use
diesel pumps, right? From your experience, would you please let me know
in what kind of industries (May be powerplants,...) or situations we can
be sure of 100% reliability of power source to use only electric driven
pumps as main?
Thanks in advance,
Reza
Richard Malek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Reza
Esmaeili
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Pump Selection - REVISED
Richard,
Many thanks for your great explanation. I think my previous question
about selecting of fire pumps was a bit confusing, so I revised it as
below.
- Actually this is for a big deluge system, not sprinkler system, I
mistyped sprinkler system in my previous email.
Let me ask my question in another way. I want to asume 3 scenarios for
selecting fire pumps for a water demand of 3900 GPM at 90 Psi.
1- Want to be economical and and I don't afford to buy reserve pumps:
(is it allowed as per NFPA not to have reserve pumps)?
If you are referring to basic NFPA 13, 15, 20, etc. requirements, a
reserve pump isn't required although if you have an electric drive
without a reliable power source, maybe in that case you could say you
need a reserve (i.e. diesel drive) although I wouldn't look at that way.
One supply (water supply + pump in this case) is required and satisfy
with diesel or electric.
I'm not sure if there is an occupancy type NFPA standard that requires a
reserve pump (I would doubt it, but I'm not familiar with every NFPA
occupancy type standard)
1-1: I have a very reliable power source: I will buy only an electric
driven main fire pump 3500GPM at 102 psi working at about 112% of rated
capasity ( I won't buy diesel, because I have a reliable power source
and also I want to be economical) 1-2:I doN't have a reliable power
source: I will buy only a diesel fire pump 3500GPM at 102 psi to work as
my main fire pump.
1-1/1-2 sound OK
2- have too much money, I will buy reserve pumps:
2-1: I will buy a main electric pump 3500GPM at 102 psi and a diesel
pump 3500GPM at 102 psi and my eletric fire pump would be main pump and
diesel pump would be reserve pump which will work at power failure
conditions.
2-2: is above arrangement as per NFPA? or I should arrange diesel pump
as main? Either is OK per NFPA from my perspective. If you're only
concerned about power failure, the diesel drive addresses that and the
electric would be unnecessary (diesel is your main AND reserve). If you
are looking at reliability more broadly, an electric paired with a
diesel probably provides some increase in reliability (diesel addesses
power availability and electric addresses the some of the inherent
complexity in the diesel drive)
3- Want to be very very economical: I don't want to buy expensive pumps
like Pattreson, Peerless, ... who are producing big pumps, I want to be
very economical and buy the cheap pumps from my supplier who can't make
a 3500 GPM pump, so I have to split the pumps and buy two sets of 1500
GPM at 129 psi working at about 130% or rated capacity.
3-1: I have a very reliable power source: I will buy 2 electric pumps
each 1500 GPM at 129 psi working as main pumps. Sounds OK, nothing stops
you from using 2 50% pumps in my opinion.
3-2: I doN't have a reliable power source: I will buy 2 diesel pumps
each 1500 GPM at 129 psi working as main pumps. Sound OK,
3-3: I am not 100% sure about reliability of power source: I will buy
one electric pumps and one diesel pump at the same capacity of 1500 GPM
at 129 psi, electric pump will start first and when water demand exceeds
than 1500 GPM, then diesel pump will start, this arrangement is because
in case of power failure, I can supply at least 50% of water demand to
control half of fire. I know this is not logical, but imagine that power
failure possibility is less than 1%. Wouldn't agree with your logic
here. 50% supply for a deluge system isn't of much use. Particularly
with the deluge systems, have to meet or exceed the demand or the
protection isn't there.
Regarding the 2 pumps, if you're demand is down to 3900 gpm, you could
likely make that work with a single 3000 gpm. That's nothing that
extraordinary. I would be looking at my estimates for installed cost and
life cycle costs as well for a single vs. 2 pumps. I thnk typically the
owner would be better off with a single 100% pump vs. 2-50%. Good luck.
Would you kindly please analyze these three scenarios and let me know if
any of them is aganist NFPA? If you have to choose one economical choice
(among item 1) and one non economical choice (among item 2), and one
very economical choice (among item 3), which ones you will choose?
Many thanks for your kind help in advance.
Thank,
Reza
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