In Ed's defense, it's always a good idea to question since changes in
13 are not always caught by a standard that references it. Case in
point, 13R says hydro per 13. In the 99 edition, 13 added
underground criteria along with a hydro test. By default 13R then
required the underground to be so tested. You now have the correct
wording in 13R showing their intent.
So we are reduced to looking in our crystal ball to divine the
intent. The underground example was easy since it exceeded the scope
of 13R. If I were a betting man, I'd say if asked they would concur
since there is no basis not too unless someone could show at the
temperature ranges for 13R there is little difference. It's funny
how "it seemed right" can sometimes get something in but then it
takes hard data to get it out.
Roland
On Apr 17, 2008, at 10:20 PM, IPA wrote:
Ed,
You answered your own question in your question... [sounds kinda
weird huh?]
NFPA #13R 2007: 5.3.3 Where antifreeze systems, dry pipe systems, and
preaction systems are installed, they shall be installed in
accordance with
NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.
NFPA #13R 2007: 6.8.4, "Piping shall be sized using hydraulic
calculation
procedures in accordance with NFPA 13."
-B-
On 4/17/08, Joe Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It doesn't matter in a 13R system. It came into the standard when
antifreeze ESFR systems were being considered, where the delay in
full water
delivery for a minute would be a big problem. That's the problem
with the
written word, it says what it says, not what the committee meant!
Joe
Fletcher, Ron wrote:
Does it really matter? The antifreeze is only in the pipe, it's
not in
the water supply. After the initial fill is gone it's just plain
water.
It doesn't seem like a friction loss different from plain water
for the
first minute or less is going to make much of difference. If your
local
sprinkler scientist (AHJ) wants the antifreeze mixture calc how
would
you account for the gradual dilution of the mixer as clean water
enters
the system? The viscosity wouldn't be a constant. Sounds like
calc with
a computer, measure with a caliper, mark with chalk and cut off
with an
axe.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Roland
Huggins
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 13R antifreeze calc
the ability of the chosen equation to reasonable predict
friction lose
is not a function of what standard requires the calculation.
The sub-zero
antifreeze systems with a high viscosity started this ball
rolling and nothing says at more normal temperatures (like 20 F) the
viscosity issue doesn't matter (so the academic hat is
overshadowing the
practicality hat in this debate).
Roland
On Apr 17, 2008, at 2:59 PM, Ed Kramer wrote:
Forum members - your opinions on the following situation, please:
Design standard is 13R 2007 edition. System type will be
antifreeze
with a volume exceeding 40 gallon.
Per 13R section 6.8.4, "Piping shall be sized using hydraulic
calculation
procedures in accordance with NFPA 13". NFPA 13 says to use the
Darcy-Weisbach method (section 22.4.4.5.1).
Do you think it's the intent of 13R to require the calcs be done
using
Darcy-Weisbach?
Ed Kramer
Littleton, CO
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