Good point but until it comes out it's there and the minute you
successfully argue your case and h\let the AHJ deviate from the
printed word you've opened the door for bucket tests on stored water
pumped systems, sprinklered sfd garages because "some of our residents
use their garages as seaplane hangers," dry uprights "as high as you
can get them" with "baling wire" for support in SFD attics, adding
fixture counts to 13D systems in 10,000 sqft homes because "rich
people have lots of parties and there's a lot of toilet flushing going
on," houses and apartments requiring light hazard area/density
criteria since "I don't think calcing four heads is enough...." I
could go on but then you'll have my book ("Stupid Things I've Heard"
and its companion "Stupid Things I've Said") for free.On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Roland Huggins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In Ed's defense, it's always a good idea to question since changes in 13 are > not always caught by a standard that references it. Case in point, 13R says > hydro per 13. In the 99 edition, 13 added underground criteria along with a > hydro test. By default 13R then required the underground to be so tested. > You now have the correct wording in 13R showing their intent. > > So we are reduced to looking in our crystal ball to divine the intent. The > underground example was easy since it exceeded the scope of 13R. If I were > a betting man, I'd say if asked they would concur since there is no basis > not too unless someone could show at the temperature ranges for 13R there is > little difference. It's funny how "it seemed right" can sometimes get > something in but then it takes hard data to get it out. > > Roland > > On Apr 17, 2008, at 10:20 PM, IPA wrote: > > > > Ed, > > You answered your own question in your question... [sounds kinda weird > huh?] > > > > NFPA #13R 2007: 5.3.3 Where antifreeze systems, dry pipe systems, and > > preaction systems are installed, they shall be installed in accordance > with > > NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems. > > > > NFPA #13R 2007: 6.8.4, "Piping shall be sized using hydraulic calculation > > procedures in accordance with NFPA 13." > > > > -B- > > > > > > > > On 4/17/08, Joe Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter in a 13R system. It came into the standard when > > > antifreeze ESFR systems were being considered, where the delay in full > water > > > delivery for a minute would be a big problem. That's the problem with > the > > > written word, it says what it says, not what the committee meant! > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > Fletcher, Ron wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Does it really matter? The antifreeze is only in the pipe, it's not in > > > > the water supply. After the initial fill is gone it's just plain > water. > > > > It doesn't seem like a friction loss different from plain water for > the > > > > first minute or less is going to make much of difference. If your > local > > > > sprinkler scientist (AHJ) wants the antifreeze mixture calc how would > > > > you account for the gradual dilution of the mixer as clean water > enters > > > > the system? The viscosity wouldn't be a constant. Sounds like calc > with > > > > a computer, measure with a caliper, mark with chalk and cut off with > an > > > > axe. > > > > > > > > Ron Fletcher > > > > Aero Automatic > > > > Phoenix, AZ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland > > > > Huggins > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:28 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: 13R antifreeze calc > > > > > > > > the ability of the chosen equation to reasonable predict friction > lose > > > > is not a function of what standard requires the calculation. The > sub-zero > > > > antifreeze systems with a high viscosity started this ball > > > > rolling and nothing says at more normal temperatures (like 20 F) the > > > > viscosity issue doesn't matter (so the academic hat is overshadowing > the > > > > practicality hat in this debate). > > > > > > > > Roland > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2008, at 2:59 PM, Ed Kramer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Forum members - your opinions on the following situation, please: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Design standard is 13R 2007 edition. System type will be antifreeze > > > > > with a volume exceeding 40 gallon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Per 13R section 6.8.4, "Piping shall be sized using hydraulic > > > > > calculation > > > > > procedures in accordance with NFPA 13". NFPA 13 says to use the > > > > > Darcy-Weisbach method (section 22.4.4.5.1). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think it's the intent of 13R to require the calcs be done > using > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Darcy-Weisbach? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ed Kramer > > > > > > > > > > Littleton, CO > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject > > > > > field) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > > > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
