Steve,
You make a good point, but I don't see the Contractor's (at least up
here) willing to take on incompetent PEs. Most of the smaller shops
don't have the time to devote to doing the documentation to file a
grievance and what benefit would they gain? It may be good for the
industry as a whole, but they get nothing out of it, so there is
little motivation. I think I referenced in an earlier post that I was
grieved by a contractor because I had drawn a job for someone else on
a project that he had been thrown off from. He had gotten a copy of
the plan I had drawn, did a review and based his complaint on that.
His motivation was vengeance and we don't need a rash of actions
based on that. (Outcome: The only legitimate issue out of the 22 he
cited was that I didn't show seismic bracing on the attic system -
which had been subsequently added before he got involved. The action
was dismissed. There is a lot more to the story, but that's something
for cocktails in George's room at a convention.....)
In general, contractors around here tend to ignore the PEs drawings
and concentrate on the specs. This is because the drawing usually
have no bearing on what the final product will look like. Typically
steel, lighting, roof pitch and mechanicals are ignored in the
engineer's plans so they become useless for real life applications.
As one engineer said to me once, 'We used to do all of this, but we
can just put something generic together and get the same money for
it. Why do the extra work?' The plans that have been thought out are
very obvious (I try to fall into that category), but there is a lot
of stuff that is just easier to ignore than try to explain. And most
of the engineers that do those types of drawings could care less.
At 07:02 PM 1/6/2009, you wrote:
Mark and Thom,
I agree with your sentiments. The difficulty with enforcement by engineers
on unqualified engineers is that we never see each other's drawings.
Engineers within the same firm can police each other I guess, but the
problem (it's a huge problem here is Florida) are the retirees or other
uninsured non-practicing engineers who will stamp anything for $100. I know
lots of engineers in many different disciplines that would love to nail
these guys, but have no way of finding out who they are. Once they are
reported, the state boards that I have seen do a pretty good job of
investigating the incident and punishing the person if there is provable
negligence - usually $2-$20k in fines and a suspension of license. In
Florida, they publish a quarterly report with every violation, who did it,
and what their punishment is.
Personally, I think contractors are in the perfect position to report these
incompetent engineers. Contractors usually have the expertise in sprinkler
systems and always see the engineer's plans. I don't mean reporting people
for incidental mistakes, but when someone clearly does not understand the
system and is unwilling work with you to resolve the issue, and insists on
pawning all of the responsibility off on the contractor - that is ground for
disciplinary action by most PE boards.
Steve Kowkabany, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC
616 Davis Street
Neptune Beach, FL 32266
904-652-4200 Phone
904-212-0868 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:12 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: The Engineering Problem (RE: another fire - this will be
interesting)
Amen, Thom!
As a member of the engineering community I completely agree.
Paul, in my experience, most engineering firms allow their people to work
outside their area of expertise - as long as MEs are doing sprinkler
'designs' this will be true. Kudos to your firm for bucking this trend.
There was a time in the distant past when MEs DID layout of sprinkler
systems - pipe schedules. I know they usually didn't do it quite right.
But it was a heck of a lot more 'engineering' than they do today. Then the
calculated system came into being and they never learned how it worked.
Through laziness and frankly, a lack of ethics, they have completely washed
their hands of the fire sprinkler 'problem.' (Ironic for a profession
defined as 'problem solving') Thus, whatever remaining small percentage of
engineering they were doing on sprinkler systems was handed over to the
low-bid contractors. They quietly get away with it because owners and/or
architects see "dots and lines" and assume that the "diagrammatic" drawing
of a sprinkler system actually helps contractors.
Of course, they DO provide a shop drawing review: and NONE of you
contractors would know to add heads below ductwork in the mechanical rooms
without the MEs input!
It would be NICE if the jurisdictions had better enforcement of engineering
- but too many are too small and/or strapped for money. This problem must
be addressed from within the engineering community. Those of us who are
trying to do things right must continue to teach the masses and grow our
businesses. In our small market we've managed to force one of our
competitors to take and eventually pass the FPE exam - he still can't and
doesn't actually design sprinkler systems, but they at least are feeling
some pressure. Many of our competitors now include separate fire protection
sheets - because our common clients are starting to expect it. No, their
fire protection sheets don't have any better "designs' than when they were
part of the Mechanical sheets, but again, they're beginning to feel the
pressure. These are extremely small baby steps, but we have to start
somewhere. The more quality work we put out there, the more the market will
learn to recognize it - and miss it when the MEs get the next job.
Engineers CAN design sprinkler systems. All FPEs do NOT "just make things
worse." We just need to encourage more to specialize in the field.
So if you find engineers doing their work correctly, please let them know
and more importantly, let their (and your) clients know. It has been said
many times on this forum that you also need to call out the engineers who
aren't doing their jobs. I know this is more difficult than it sounds: many
times the sprinkler contractor is the low-man on the construction totem pole
and is often ignored; the mechanical contractor looking for your price
doesn't care about your thoughts on the engineer's plans. But when you get
the chance to talk to owners or architects or AHJs, bring up the engineering
problem. Suggest they use someone else for fire protection on their next
project. Teach them that sprinkler design is NOT a branch of plumbing
design.
Mark A. Sornsin, PE
Fire Protection Engineer
Ulteig Engineers, Inc.
Fargo, ND
Direct: 701. 280.8591
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: another fire - this will be interesting
Actually this is the engineering community's problem, not mine. You're the
one's that allow incompetent work to be done by engineers that are neither
qualified or trained to do it. Working "Outside their area of expertise" If
all states licensed engineers by discipline or degree, or had some really
effective bylaws and penalties for engineers that do work outside their
knowledge or training it might help. Most states like Colorado allow the
engineers to "Self Police" their brother engineers, and unless someone dies
or a huge financial loss occurs, they rarely do more than send "censure
notes" to fellow engineers.(Please don't be bad anymore, and take that 3 day
NFPA 13 class, cause that's all the training you need to DESIGN fire
sprinkler systems, because you already know everything else.)
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080
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