Chris 1) Great question. 2) Yes 3) Yes, Grounding electrode connections must be made within 5ft from the point of entrance to the building (2005 NEC 250.52(A)(1)) with one exception for industrial and commercial buildings where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation, if that's the case ask that person, if not the electrical inspector isnt going to allow the exception. As I noted placing the bonding connection beyond the bfp, pump, main valving and alarm valves may be helpful since it will be beyond 5ft and thus not qualify as a ground electrode connection. Even with the exception this works since the qualified person will be there to answer the question.
Theres some more ways to identify that I'll list but right now I have to review a sprinkler permit application. I'll be out Thursday and Friday. John Drucker -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 1:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: FW: Grounding, Bonding and Sprinkler Piping I'll show some ignorance because I have never seen a wire attached to a sprinkler system. How would I tell the difference between a ground connection and a bond connection? Wouldn't they both be a clamp and wire running off to who knows where? Isn't it the where that make the difference between the two not the clamp? So if they appear the same to the sprinkler contractor they indeed then should all be noted on all inspections. The owner then in theory confirms ground or bond. I note it again every year for CYA? Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:54 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: FW: Grounding, Bonding and Sprinkler Piping Thom, Even in the electrical industry there is much confusion over bonding and grounding. Suffice to say that outside the electrical industry it would be expected to be more so. As with all other matters if ones not sure, ask questions of someone qualified to make the determination. I have experienced first hand sprinkler mechanics and inspectors removing bonding and grounding connections from sprinkler systems. First and foremost consider the ramifications. If it's a ground connection where the piping is being used as a grounding electrode, a violation of NFPA-13, removal of the grounding electrode conductor worsens the situation since a grounding point, albeit in violation, is nonetheless lost exposing the buildings electrical system. The correct and safe process would be to report the possible violation so that a proper grounding electrode could be provided and connected before removing the improper one. If it's a bonding connection removal the potential exists for the piping to become energized without the ability to clear a fault, exposing anyone including sprinkler and fire department personnel to the risk of death or injury. Again the correct and safe process would be to report the possible violation so that an electrical contractor or inspector can make an educated determination. Interesting how this originated on the fire alarm list, but not to worry we're in this together ! Now back to 2009 IRC already in progress. Sincerely, John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official Electrical Inspector Licensed Electrical Contractor Safe Buildings Save Lives ! -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 12:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: FW: Grounding, Bonding and Sprinkler Piping Grounding of the sprinkler riser is prohibited. 10.6.8* In no case shall the underground piping be used as a grounding electrode for electrical systems. This does not preclude the bonding of the underground piping to the lightning protection grounding system as required by NFPA780 in those cases where lightning protection is provided for the structure. We're talking "Bonding" for Ground fault and Arc fault operation inside of the structure or building. Since this falls under the NEC the electrical engineer and electrical contractor are responsible for the installation of all "Bonds" to all metallic building systems. I believe the purpose of this entire post has been to make everyone, AHJ, Contractor or inspectors, aware that a bond is required at some location. That a bond is not a ground. And that this will not fall under the "Hang or support nothing from the sprinkler piping or hangers" Additionally in seismic areas this "Bond" must be of sufficient length and flexibility to allow for differential movement, depending upon its location. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:59 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: FW: Grounding, Bonding and Sprinkler Piping Remember, that for it to be considered a ground, NFPA #70 requires 10' of continuous cover on the pipe. If it is plastic, such as the run up to the stub on most sprinkler systems, then this will not meet the definition. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-387-1163 Facsimile [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 10:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: FW: Grounding, Bonding and Sprinkler Piping Ed, In my professional opinion I would say the riser after any backflow devices, fire pumps, alarm and check valves, i.e. items that are expected to be removed for repair or replacement, however the code does not stipulate this. In all cases the electrical engineer and local inspector are to be consulted. Hope that helps. John Drucker -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ed Vining Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:13 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: FW: Grounding, Bonding and Sprinkler Piping John, what do you consider an appropriate place(s) to connect the sprinkler piping to ensure a reliable connection to ground? Just connecting it to the nearest piece of metal might not suffice. . Ed Vining On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 4:48 AM, John Drucker <[email protected]>wrote: > Subject: Grounding, Bonding and Sprinkler Piping > > > >From an industry forum list (AFAA Firealarm). Apparently NFPA-25 > inspectors > (contractors) are either removing the bonding connection and or noting > it as a violation................................ > > John > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > From: John Drucker <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: [firealarm] Ground Rod Questions > > All interior water piping within a building, including metallic fire > sprinkler piping is required to be bonded pursuant to 2008 NEC > 250.104(A)(B) > . > > Failure to bond a metallic piping system could result in the piping > system becoming energized with the potential of shock or > electrocution. Bonding merely places all metallic components within a > building at equipotential.These components, water piping, gas piping, > building steel, etc are bonded (electrically connected together) to the electrical system. > A > properly bonded system assures a low impedance electrical path exists > should a fault occur producing the needed fault current in order to > operate a circuits overcurrent device thus clearing the fault by > deenergizing the circuit. > > Grounding on the other hand is the connection of the buildings > electrical system to earth in order to dissipate lighting, transients > and stabilize system voltage. Grounding is not Bonding. The sprinkler > piping prohibition applies to the use of fire sprinkler piping as a > Grounding electrode. Its important that we not remove bonding jumpers > from aboveground fire sprinkler piping. If you're not sure consult > with your electrical inspector. In the end it might just save > someone's life ! > > Sincerely, > > John Drucker > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. 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