Which is where your disclaimer about local AHJ's comes into play, I presume?
Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13 & 13R - same building "We can debate issues of functionality, but the code clearly defines a podium separation as separate buildings." However ONLY WITHIN THE CONTEXT of the referenced code section. In this case 2006 IBC 509 et al. "A basement and/or the first story above grade plane of a building shall be considered as a separate and distinct building for the PURPOSE OF DETERMINING area limitations, continuity of fire walls, limitation of number of stories and type of construction." As opposed to the context of 2006 IBC 705.1 "705.1 General. Each portion of a building separated by one or more fire walls that comply with the provisions of this section shall be considered a separate building." Theres a significant distinction which is being overlooked. John Drucker -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13 & 13R - same building We can debate issues of functionality, but the code clearly defines a podium separation as separate buildings. If the deck is solid reinforced concrete, and the openings are shafted or protected (3 hr. fire stops), then you can build down to Type V above a Type 1. Of course, this also allows a LOT of unprotected openings at the exterior walls above (presuming adequate setbacks), but the presumption is that sprinklers will control a fire below that deck and limit exterior spread. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13 & 13R - same building Steve & Roland, Being that two solutions separate buildings, open space and firewalls, a horizontal separation will never satisfy either. Whomever coined the term "horizontal firewall" most likely wasn't using it in the context of gravity. So I guess it applies to the space station. Then again can one use a 13R for the space station ?, sounds like a mixed use. John Drucker PS, George, Let's not start on what's being allowed by AHJ's. Also don't feel you're alone on "combination sensing lines". Just had one from a licensed contractor. It has since been abated. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13 & 13R - same building And it should be added that the TC has proposed new language for scope section 1.1 of 13R that, if it passes the hearing in two weeks, will clarify that the intent is for 13R to be applied only to buildings that are classified as residential and the ancillary occupancies within. So if a structure is separated horizontally or vertically into separate buildings as defined by the code, you can have two designs - 13 and 13R - in each separated building. But if a structure is one building of mixed occupancies, then it's a 13 design, period. The foregoing is my opinion only and does not necessarily represent the opinion or intent of the NFPA 13D/13R Technical Committee on Residential Sprinkler Systems. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: 13 & 13R - same building even the scope of 13R and annex material confirm you can not mix the two systems in one building. As for HORIZONTAL separation equal to building separation -as soon as it's possible to have the floor collapse and not affect the other side, then we'll talk about horizontal separation for two buildings. Todd - who spec'd it and where does your PE status enter the issue for incorrect application of standards? Roland On May 28, 2009, at 6:19 AM, John Drucker wrote: > George, > > Careful George don't give em any ideas; "If they resist you pointing > out the fact that 13 should apply to the entire building, maybe point > out that using their logic, you could do the top 4 floors of a > residential high-rise using 13R?" > > This would NOT be permitted since a high-rise would be at least 75ft > highest occupiable floor above lowest FD vehicle access, or appx a 6-7 > story building wherein 13R is limited to "Residential Occupancies up > to including four stories in height". Height being measured from grade > plane. > > Guys the title and scope of the standard make it clear 13R is not > intended for "Residential Occupancies" and not "Mixed Use" > occupancies. > Common areas including private garages; mail, trash, laundry, exercise > and storage areas that serve the residential occupancy are considered > "incidental" and appropriately addressed in 13R wherein these spaces > are designed and installed in according to 13. However in the end its > still a 13R system and not a 13/13R which simply doesn't exist. Mixed > use Buildings are provided for at IBC 508. > > Lastly be careful of the IBC Section 509.2 provisions. Read the > section carefully especially the part; "separate and distinct building > for the purpose of determining area limitations, continuity of fire > walls, limitation of number of stories, and type of construction" > There's no mention of height with regards to fire sprinkler systems > thus the measurement is from grade plane and not the pedestal. I'm > certain we have many a 5 story building out there with 13R systems. > > John Drucker _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4112 (20090528) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4112 (20090528) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4114 (20090528) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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