Regarding the code or standard on which you base the inspection, I'm speaking from my understanding of Georgia regulations and the inspection being done from the applicable portions of NFPA 25, 2002. The Inspector (NICET Level 3 in GA) has to be meticulous and methodical to do it right. Inferring the inspection must comply with any portion of IFC (2006 in GA) opens a really big can of worms. I don't believe it is the intent for ITM contractors to inspect based on the IFC. A fire official can and should enforce replacing recalls. For non-compliant and impaired systems, GA regulations require the inspection report be sent to the local AHJ. I send it approximately 7 days after the owner has a copy and has had a chance to reply. If I send information to the AHJ which does not originate from the NFPA 25 inspection, I'm going beyond what my customer paid me to do, and the intent of the 25 inspection. And, as I've heard a dozen times in seminars, courts may use this against me in the case of a loss. Georgia intended to adopt the 2008 edition before now, but with the budget crunch the adoption date is unknown. Once 2008 (or whatever is next) is adopted, you can bet the AHJs will see recalled sprinklers in the report. Bobby McCullough Atlanta Sprinkler Inspection
________________________________ From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org on behalf of John Drucker Sent: Fri 9/18/2009 1:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Chewable topic.....Omegas Barry, Pete, I'm in the process of looking up the exact statutes however it goes without saying that a certified contractor, as is required in New Jersey, would be remiss and perhaps fall within the Duty to Act Statute if he/she knowingly and or should have known but failed to act, i,e, notify the building owner and fire official. Duty to Act transgressions are considered criminal acts. I have one in process right now where a diligent fire sprinkler service provider notified the property owner in writing and copied same to our office. The end result the citation was issued to the property owner who authorized the provider to replace some 300 sprinklers. The work starts this coming Monday along with the requisite fire watch while the system is impaired. It comes down to doing the right thing despite the shortcomings of the reference standard. John Drucker, CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Fire Marshals Office Borough of Red Bank, NJ -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Maag, Barry Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 1:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Chewable topic.....Omegas I haven't been following this thread closely. I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not. IFC 2006 reads as follows. 901.9 Recall of fire protection components. Any fire protection system component regulated by this code that is the subject of a voluntary or mandatory recall under federal law shall be replaced with approved, listed components in compliance with the referenced standards of this code. The fire code official shall be notified in writing by the building owner when the recalled component parts have been replaced. With that being said I believe that the fire code official should be notified so that they can enforce the code (law). Barry Maag -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 11:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Chewable topic.....Omegas The Inspection Forms from the NFSA have a section for noting recalled components. I note them and send a certified letter, copying the Fire Marshal. There is a moral obligation to report recalled heads and what point is there in doing a main drain test in a school or nursing home if all the sprinklers are recalled? The AHJ mentioned previously that allows recalled heads to save the owner money should consider the night club fires. The inspectors went to jail. Forest Wilson Project Manager Cherokee Fire Protection Co. 3195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900 Dayton OH 45434 ph: 937-376-2333 fx: 614-455-4324 cell: 937-307-5647 . Visit our blog: www.cherokee- fire.blogspot.com NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be solely for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. It is not intended for transmission to, or receipt by, anyone other than the named addressee (or a person authorized to deliver it to the named addressee). It should not be copied or forwarded to any unauthorized persons. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the error by reply email or by calling Cherokee Fire Protection Co. at 888-347-3079 toll free. -----Original Message----- From: George Church <for...@ptd.net> To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 11:55:48 -0400 Subject: RE: Chewable topic.....Omegas The liabilities we ITM contractors can inadvertently inherit are HUGE and especially so when you look at the minimal amount of revenue we get for taking on this risk. The #25 committee has done a good job of understanding and limiting it for us, but contractors doing ITM MUST understand what you can and cannot put on an inspection form. The standard means of addressing items outside the scope of #25 but relevant is, as Bobby mentioned, a letter (certified makes sense) to the owner SEPARATE from the ITM report(s). We inspect buildings as an agent of the OWNER and if you go outside that contractual relationship, you can end up paying dearly for it. We're putting 100,000 SF retail complex back in service after 10+ years of being turned off. It came to the BCO's attn when a spkr guy doing a small fit-out discovered the system was off, and rather than advise the Owner, he called in the BCO. I assume the spkr guy was working for a GC, and don't know if the GC was working for the tenant or the Owner. But the Owner's rep got a certified letter with a Notice to Vacate in 10 days, called us to handle it, and from what I heard back from my foreman on site, the original spkr guy not only didn't get the service work we ended up with, but he got booted off the fit-out, too. I'm not privy to much else and don't really care- we're doing between 10 and 20 years of tenant improvements, backflows on all risers (was a tank and pump; had city run in, connected, but not placed in service 2 yrs ago), and whatever else may come up. Plus the chances of the original sprinkie getting additional work is slim, but they're very happy with us. We were able to get him a 60 day continuance on the Vacate Notice within 3 days of the initial call, so the new FA system has time to get installed before the revised deadline. Another reason mandatory ITM by the AHJ isn't such a bad idea. 100k retail complex with no working AS, no FA, no smokes, pulls, nada zip. Can't say the Owner was right, but glad we were able to a) help him out and b) 3 or 400 labor hrs of work in a bad economy. glc -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Larrimer, Peter A (CEOSH) Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:41 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Chewable topic.....Omegas That's great John, the way NFPA 25 has been rewritten, the ITM folks are not obligated to tell (and evidently some teaching out there is actually discouraged them from telling) the owner that they have recalled Omegas in their building for fear of getting sued. Won't get many replaced even with you requesting an official copy of the NFPA 25 report from the Owner. Something's broke there don't you think? Peter Larrimer, PE Dept. of VA -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:32 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: FW: Chewable topic.....Omegas While we're sharing jurisdiction info, As adopted by the NJ Uniform Fire Code, N.J.A.C. 5:70-3, 901.9 & 901.6.2 901.9 Recall of fire protection components. Any fire protection system component regulated by this code that is the subject of a voluntary or mandatory recall under federal law shall be replaced with approved, listed components in compliance with the referenced standards of this code. The fire code official shall be notified in writing by the building owner when the recalled component parts have been replaced. 901.6.2 Records. Records of all system inspections, tests and maintenance required by the referenced standards shall be maintained on the premises for a minimum of three years and shall be copied to the fire code official upon request. John Drucker, CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Fire Marshals Office Borough of Red Bank, NJ -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby McCullough Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 7:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Chewable topic.....Omegas Georgia requires inspection reports to go to the AHJ. We are still under 25-2002, so including a recalled sprinkler is outside the scope of 25. The AHJ may make the owner change the sprinklers, but until the state adopts the 2008 standard I'm leaving recalls off reports. Listening to the AFSA web seminar yesterday reinforced the concept of keeping a 25 report strictly on 25 issues. We occasionally find Omegas and inform the owner outside the 25 report. The certified letter sounds like a better way to go. Sending reports to insurance companies sounds like a good plan. Enforcement would be tough. I've heard from AHJs in the metro area they receive very few inspection reports and, to my knowledge, enforcement is sparse. Bobby McCullough Atlanta Sprinkler Inspection -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Chewable topic.....Omegas Some states, such as Illinois and Florida require copies of Inspection Reports to be sent to the AHJ. If the owner gets upset because the Fire Marshal is informed of recalled heads then the owner is not the ideal customer anyway. The AFSA had a guidline on how contractors should deal with recalled heads uncovered during an inspection and I believe it recommended sending a certified letter to the owner informing him of the presence of recalled heads. What I do is send the letter and copy the Fire Marshal. Fortunately contractors in states like Illinois and Fla have a legal obligation to copy the Fire Marshal and the owner can't legally complain when its done. The NFPA 25 Committee has considered requiring inspection reports to be ent to the Insurance Company but has not reached agreement on that proposal. Local and state requirements to send reports to the AHJ have the same effect of helping to ensure that deficiencies are repaired. Forest Wilson Project Manager Cherokee Fire Protection Co. 3195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900 Dayton OH 45434 ph: 937-376-2333 fx: 614-455-4324 cell: 937-307-5647 . Visit our blog: www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: Thom McMahon <tmcma...@firetechinc.com> To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:48:53 -0600 Subject: RE: Chewable topic.....Omegas Once more we are put in the position of "Sprinkler Police" for the fire marshal and fire inspectors by the IFC. If we report Omega installations to the fire marshal, how happy is the owner with us? If we simply tell the owner he is supposed to tell the fire marshal, and he doesn't what liability does that give us? How long are we allowed to ignore the owners failure to do what's "required"? Doesn't much matter which route you chose, if the building has a fire before the replacement is done you'll be making an appearance in court. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. 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