Greg, I've done it that way and you're correct on sequence. So every time I get plans at the last minute and then I'm holding everything up. Nothing new though since I'm used to that from the design/build model where you get partial plans on Friday and they want you to start work on Monday. I once even had an architect want to know why plans needed to be drawn anyway. It was only the one time but...GEE! When it does work though it is a wonderful way to do things, especially if there's a true commissioning regime also in process.
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Greg McGahan <[email protected]> wrote: > Wow, That sounds like a great idea unless you have worked for PE's and TRIED > to develop shop drawings SIMULTANEOUSLY with the other disciplines. You > quickly realize, that unless it is a very simple layout, the sprinkler cannot > be done until the lighting is done, the diffuse layout is done, the > structural is done, the civil is done and the arch is mostly done. > > Doable, I am sure, feasible, hard sell to me. It is way too hard to get the > info you need unless you are willing to do, redo, redo, redo......until > everybody is complete. > > But again, that is just my experience. > > Greg McGahan > Operations Manager > > Living Water Fire Protection > 1160 McKenzie Road > P.O. Box 877 > Cantonment, Florida 32533 > (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 > [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Blackwell > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: walk in Ovens > > In the realm of civil engineering where I initially started, the PE > generates all the drawings and calculations. The water/sewer-line > contractors bid solely on installation which is very simple and clear > cut lines of responsibility/liability. > > > > My personal opinion is that the system in place is at fault for a lot of > the problems. I believe that the solution involves modeling a new system > after the successful engineer/contractor design/installation model. > NICET designers should work for the PEs with the PE responsible for > preparing a detailed design of design drawings [FP-series], calculations > and specifications prior to bid. The contractors should get out of the > hassle of preparing the drawings and calculations and shed their NICET > designers to the engineering companies who will need them [and who can > use them as NSPE originally envisioned when creating NICET]. > > > > The fire protection PE should be part of the initial design team hired > by the architect of record just like the other engineering disciplines > of civil, mechanical, electrical, structural, etc. > > > > South Carolina State Law requires the PE be involved up front prior to > bid; however, only the basic design information (not detailed drawings > and calculations) is required on a state specific form created by our > office, a Fire Sprinkler System Specification Sheet (FSSSS) which must > be included with the bid documents. South Carolina also requires the PE > review and approve the contractor's shop drawings, calculations, etc. > prior to submission to the AHJ for review and then complete and seal a > Fire Sprinkler System Certificate of Compliance (COC) form. You can > learn more by reading the SC Fire Protection Sprinkler Systems Act at > http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t40c010.htm. > > > > Q - Do you know what you call the Doctor that almost didn't graduate and > almost failed to get his license? > > A - Doctor! The same as the guy that graduated top of his class and > aced his license exam. > > > > As an AHJ, I see the whole "bell-curve" of licensed contractors and > registered design professionals. What I fear most is the "perfect > storm" pairing of negligent/incompetent contractors with > negligent/incompetent PEs and negligent/incompetent AHJs and then fire > sprinkler systems as a whole getting a bad reputation due to incidents > with such improperly designed and improperly installed systems. We are > on the cusp of a sea-change if we can keep the sprinkler requirements in > the IRC and get them adopted in more and more jurisdictions. Once > people get accustomed to the benefits of sprinklers at home, they will > wonder why so many other buildings built under the IBC aren't required > to be sprinklered also... > > > > > > > > David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFI-I, CFPE > > Engineering > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Office of State Fire Marshal > > 141 Monticello Trail > > Columbia, SC 29203 > > Phone: 803.896.9833 > > Fax: 803.896.9806 > > Email: [email protected] > > OSFM Website: http://www.llr.state.sc.us/firemarshal.asp > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > ParsleyConsulting > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:04 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: walk in Ovens > > > > Kevin, > > > > Don't let that one hit close to home, because when you ask questions and > > > look for assistance you're steps ahead of many > > PE's who are operating well outside their area of experience and > training. > > > > As for the "making bank" I agree, and I don't. I've heard the old saw > > "bid it low and extra them into the land of profit" for > > many years as an approach to the bidding process, and that bothers me to > > > no end. However, I'm involved with a sprinkler > > contractor here in California who's run afoul of a PE who has made last > > minute demands on the contractor for seismic > > bracing which is well beyond the scope of NFPA-13, and wasn't a part of > > the bid documents that they or their competitors > > used when estimating the job costs. The number of braces on the system > > if you follow NFPA-13 requirements is approximately > > 18-20, however the demands made by the structural PE will increase that > > number to over 190 braces (such as all branch > > lines regardless of size or length to be provided with two lateral and > > two longitudinal braces, braces to be located and 1/4 > > or 1/3 points of pipe - not ZOI but pipe - for all mains, etc.). None > > of that could have been anticipated or known because > > he just made it up, and I don't want to do that to the owner, but I > > don't want to do that to the sprinkler contractor either > > because it definitely isn't his fault. > > > > The hostility is the result of surprises, which "someone else" is > > expected to pay for because "they should have known". > > > > I will say this - I've yet to meet a sprinkler contractor who refused to > > > do something beyond the standard if it was made clear > > to them on bid documents what was expected. > > > > Just my thoughts. > > -- > > PARSLEY CONSULTING > > Ken Wagoner, SET > > 760.745.6181 voice > > 760.745.0537 fax > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> e-mail > > www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
