Standard spacing, standard coverage heads, LH and OH, bundle of pipe for threaded fittings, pipe schedule and the arch plan. Who needs a stinkin' sprinkler plan? I'd argue any sprinkler fitter with more than a couple years should be able to pull it off. T&M of course.
Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:53 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: walk in Ovens Greg, I've done it that way and you're correct on sequence. So every time I get plans at the last minute and then I'm holding everything up. Nothing new though since I'm used to that from the design/build model where you get partial plans on Friday and they want you to start work on Monday. I once even had an architect want to know why plans needed to be drawn anyway. It was only the one time but...GEE! When it does work though it is a wonderful way to do things, especially if there's a true commissioning regime also in process. On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Greg McGahan <[email protected]> wrote: > Wow, That sounds like a great idea unless you have worked for PE's and TRIED to develop shop drawings SIMULTANEOUSLY with the other disciplines. You quickly realize, that unless it is a very simple layout, the sprinkler cannot be done until the lighting is done, the diffuse layout is done, the structural is done, the civil is done and the arch is mostly done. > > Doable, I am sure, feasible, hard sell to me. It is way too hard to get the info you need unless you are willing to do, redo, redo, redo......until everybody is complete. > > But again, that is just my experience. > > Greg McGahan > Operations Manager > > Living Water Fire Protection > 1160 McKenzie Road > P.O. Box 877 > Cantonment, Florida 32533 > (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 > [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Blackwell > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:14 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: walk in Ovens > > In the realm of civil engineering where I initially started, the PE > generates all the drawings and calculations. The water/sewer-line > contractors bid solely on installation which is very simple and clear > cut lines of responsibility/liability. > > > > My personal opinion is that the system in place is at fault for a lot of > the problems. I believe that the solution involves modeling a new system > after the successful engineer/contractor design/installation model. > NICET designers should work for the PEs with the PE responsible for > preparing a detailed design of design drawings [FP-series], calculations > and specifications prior to bid. The contractors should get out of the > hassle of preparing the drawings and calculations and shed their NICET > designers to the engineering companies who will need them [and who can > use them as NSPE originally envisioned when creating NICET]. > > > > The fire protection PE should be part of the initial design team hired > by the architect of record just like the other engineering disciplines > of civil, mechanical, electrical, structural, etc. > > > > South Carolina State Law requires the PE be involved up front prior to > bid; however, only the basic design information (not detailed drawings > and calculations) is required on a state specific form created by our > office, a Fire Sprinkler System Specification Sheet (FSSSS) which must > be included with the bid documents. South Carolina also requires the PE > review and approve the contractor's shop drawings, calculations, etc. > prior to submission to the AHJ for review and then complete and seal a > Fire Sprinkler System Certificate of Compliance (COC) form. You can > learn more by reading the SC Fire Protection Sprinkler Systems Act at > http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t40c010.htm. > > > > Q - Do you know what you call the Doctor that almost didn't graduate and > almost failed to get his license? > > A - Doctor! The same as the guy that graduated top of his class and > aced his license exam. > > > > As an AHJ, I see the whole "bell-curve" of licensed contractors and > registered design professionals. What I fear most is the "perfect > storm" pairing of negligent/incompetent contractors with > negligent/incompetent PEs and negligent/incompetent AHJs and then fire > sprinkler systems as a whole getting a bad reputation due to incidents > with such improperly designed and improperly installed systems. We are > on the cusp of a sea-change if we can keep the sprinkler requirements in > the IRC and get them adopted in more and more jurisdictions. Once > people get accustomed to the benefits of sprinklers at home, they will > wonder why so many other buildings built under the IBC aren't required > to be sprinklered also... > > > > > > > > David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFI-I, CFPE > > Engineering > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Office of State Fire Marshal > > 141 Monticello Trail > > Columbia, SC 29203 > > Phone: 803.896.9833 > > Fax: 803.896.9806 > > Email: [email protected] > > OSFM Website: http://www.llr.state.sc.us/firemarshal.asp > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > ParsleyConsulting > Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:04 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: walk in Ovens > > > > Kevin, > > > > Don't let that one hit close to home, because when you ask questions and > > > look for assistance you're steps ahead of many > > PE's who are operating well outside their area of experience and > training. > > > > As for the "making bank" I agree, and I don't. I've heard the old saw > > "bid it low and extra them into the land of profit" for > > many years as an approach to the bidding process, and that bothers me to > > > no end. However, I'm involved with a sprinkler > > contractor here in California who's run afoul of a PE who has made last > > minute demands on the contractor for seismic > > bracing which is well beyond the scope of NFPA-13, and wasn't a part of > > the bid documents that they or their competitors > > used when estimating the job costs. The number of braces on the system > > if you follow NFPA-13 requirements is approximately > > 18-20, however the demands made by the structural PE will increase that > > number to over 190 braces (such as all branch > > lines regardless of size or length to be provided with two lateral and > > two longitudinal braces, braces to be located and 1/4 > > or 1/3 points of pipe - not ZOI but pipe - for all mains, etc.). None > > of that could have been anticipated or known because > > he just made it up, and I don't want to do that to the owner, but I > > don't want to do that to the sprinkler contractor either > > because it definitely isn't his fault. > > > > The hostility is the result of surprises, which "someone else" is > > expected to pay for because "they should have known". > > > > I will say this - I've yet to meet a sprinkler contractor who refused to > > > do something beyond the standard if it was made clear > > to them on bid documents what was expected. > > > > Just my thoughts. > > -- > > PARSLEY CONSULTING > > Ken Wagoner, SET > > 760.745.6181 voice > > 760.745.0537 fax > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> e-mail > > www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
