And I used to have a Pacer and loved it except for the heavy handling front end.
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 8:10 AM, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: > Todd, please refrain from making fun of engineers like that. I know one that > just gave up his Saturn and dresses like a tourist. And I've seen worser, > LOL. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 10:52 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: 13R sprinklers > > I am going with ignorant. In addition to this, we have to sprinkler > all closets and bathrooms, install an RPZ in a hot box outside the > building and they took my 42x30 drawing, shrunk it to 36x24, then > rejected the plan for being less than 1/8 scale. > > I remember the 13/18 was the original design, but the single head > calc went out about 10 years ago(?). The spec also calls for Grinnell > or Star sprinklers. My guess is the engineer is just not current and > not interested in being so. He probably drives and AMC Hornet and > wear a leisure suit. > > > > At 10:26 AM 5/19/2010, you wrote: >>This is important - LET ME PLAY DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, where is the engineer >>WRONG? Quick look at Tyco LF II 4.9 pendant 12' x 12' is 13 gpm. And at > 18 >>gpm it's a 13.49 psi start. The sidewalls at 4.2 will do 13gpm at 9.2 psi >>so you are not forced under a 7 psi start. So he won't let you use 16' x > 20' >>spacing? Just because one won't allow what in essence is extended coverage >>doesn't make one ignorant. >> >>Is this not the equivalent of not allowing sched 7 and only allowing sched >>40 threaded noting sched 7 has many more times the CRR? Both cases are > text >>book verse a real application. Perhaps some think 12' x 12' spacing is >>better then EC and 40 is better than 7 when applied to a real project. How >>often do we see a spec say no EC? How often do we see no reduction for QR? >> >>I acknowledge you did say he is reading out of the where not been listed >>with special...so his argument may be flawed but his conclusion probably >>isn't from his perspective. I'm sure you recall the 13/18 was the original >>NFPA 13R/D spec and the first heads had no other spacing options. But it >>also looks like at least in Tyco's case the low end it's the same on the >>13gpm side. Yeah the dual gpm is gone. But an engineer can spec any >>density greater than the minimum. >> >>I didn't talk with the engineer perhaps he/she/it is ignorant or perhaps >>just exercising engineering prerogative like all the other times we see it. >> >> >>Again that was the other side of the coin. I'M ON YOUR SIDE TODD. I >>wouldn't cost the owner extra money in what will probably be a lot of extra >>heads but I don't see anything WRONG here. >> >>Chris Cahill, P.E. >>Fire Protection Engineer >>Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. >> >>763-658-4483 >>763-658-4921 fax >> >>Email: [email protected] >> >>Mail: P.O. Box 69 >> Waverly, MN 55390 >> >>Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW >> Waverly, MN 55390 >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [email protected] >>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >>[email protected] >>Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 8:39 AM >>To: [email protected] >>Subject: RE: 13R sprinklers >> >>Todd , >> Are you saying the engineer has seen and has read these sections of 13R > and >>still doesn't understand the requirements ? If so , you may have to go over >>his head to a higher authority or say a prayer and try to appease him as >>best you can. >> >>Good Luck , >> >>Lamar Vaughn , SET >> >> >>---- Todd Williams <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Discharge - 6.7.1.1.1, Coverage - 6.7.1.3.1. NFPA 13R (2002) >> > >> > >> > >> > At 08:23 AM 5/19/2010, you wrote: >> > >I'd ask him to please, for your edification, cite the sections of >> > >the NFPA Standard where he derived his specification data. >> > > >> > >I guess he was looking at sprinkler data sheets and when it didn't >> > >say that the sprinkler is designed for 0.10 or whatever gpm/sq. ft >> > >he thinks it falls into that category? >> > > >> > > >> > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >> > >Fire Protection Specialist >> > >Mechanical Department >> > >CH2MHILL >> > >Lockwood Greene >> > >1500 International Drive >> > >Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 >> > >Direct - 864.599.4102 >> > >Fax - 864.599.8439 >> > >[email protected] >> > >http://www.ch2m.com >> > > >> > >-----Original Message----- >> > >From: [email protected] >> > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd >>Williams >> > >Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 6:11 AM >> > >To: [email protected] >> > >Subject: 13R sprinklers >> > > >> > >I am working on a project with a rather ignorant engineer who will >> > >not accept listed flow requirements for residential sprinklers. He is >> > >insisting on using the 12 x 12 spacing, 13 gpm for multiple sprinkler >> > >flow and 18 for single sprinkler flow (we have to calculate both). My >> > >question may be one of semantics, but this is what the engineer is >> > >hanging everything on. Both the above spacing and discharge >> > >requirements are under sections entitled "Sprinklers That Have Not >> > >Been Listed with Specific (Discharge/Coverage) Criteria". Since >> > >virtually all of the residential sprinklers I am aware of have >> > >specific design and coverage criteria, am I to assume based on the >> > >wording that sprinklers with specific criteria cannot be used under >> > >this section? If so, are there any sprinklers without specific >> > >criteria currently on the market? >> > > >> > >Todd G. Williams, PE >> > >Fire Protection Design/Consulting >> > >Stonington, CT >> > >860.535.2080 >> > >www.fpdc.com >> > > >> > >_______________________________________________ >> > >Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > >[email protected] >> > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > > >> > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> > > >> > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >> > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > >_______________________________________________ >> > >Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > >[email protected] >> > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > > >> > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> > > >> > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >> > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > >> > Todd G. Williams, PE >> > Fire Protection Design/Consulting >> > Stonington, CT >> > 860.535.2080 >> > www.fpdc.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> > >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>[email protected] >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sprinklerforum mailing list >>[email protected] >>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >>To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860.535.2080 > www.fpdc.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
