Sammys are approved, but not specifically detailed in NFPA 13, which is this guy's problem.
At 07:12 PM 6/21/2010, you wrote: >Why are we even talking about "Non-Listed" hanger parts? He said he was >using Sammy brand wood fasteners. They are listed! >See FM guide 1-544 and it gives a whole list of approvals for all kinds of >"Sammy" brand fasteners.(Specifically GST20 and GST30) They also have a U/L >listing. If you only want a U/L listing there are even more options from >Sammy. > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >ParsleyConsulting >Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 4:00 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: Hanger capacity > >Chris, > >Yes, the standard does say that, only not quite as eloquently as Ron did. > >9.1.1.2 lists the requirements for a non-listed hanger assembly provided >by a structural engineer. > >9.2.1.3.1 lists the requirements for the capacity of the building >structure to accept the load, which is another matter entirely. You'll >note that in 9.2.1.3, there's no 5x multiplier. > >-- >PARSLEY CONSULTING >Ken Wagoner, SET >760.745.6181 voice >760.745.0537 fax >[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> e-mail >www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website > > >IMPORTANT NOTICE: This correspondence is not a Formal >Interpretation issued pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion >expressed is the personal opinion of the author and does not necessarily >represent the official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. >In addition, this correspondence is neither intended, nor should it be >relied upon, to provide professional consultation or services. > > > >Chris Cahill wrote: > > "The code says the building needs to hold up X weight of sprinkler piping, > > water and fat guy." > > > > Does the code say that? The hanger needs this when not listed. The point > > of support only needs to be adequate to support the system from the '02 >ed. > > I don't believe the building code is that specific. The listing as Rich >said > > doesn't have this extra apparently. I also submit as evidence all the >really > > light weight structural systems that can barely hold themselves up it >seems > > never mind the sprinklers without the extra. > > > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > > Fire Protection Engineer > > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > > > 763-658-4483 > > 763-658-4921 fax > > > > Email: [email protected] > > > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron >Greenman > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 4:22 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: Hanger capacity > > > > And of course Todd I'm going to get on my old horse: If you're being > > the sprinkler guy on this why are you even caring about the load > > holding abilities of the building? The code says the building needs to > > hold up X weight of sprinkler piping, water and fat guy. You provide > > the point loading value to that weight and the owner, through his > > highly paid and highly skilled reps, architect, GC, structural, > > whomever is driving that part of the boat makes sure the building is > > adequate. If you're also being the structural on this then go for it. > > > > On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Richard Mote > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> If you look at the load limit tables from some of the hanger > >> > > manufacturers, > > > >> you will notice that the numbers do not always equal 5 times the weight + > >> 250 lbs. This was pointed out to me by a P.E. reviewing a set of plans I > >> > > had > > > >> submitted. Subsequent conversations between the hanger manufacturer in > >> question and U/L reveled the following. > >> > >> U/L has a set of criteria, hangers and hanger devices have to meet in > >> > > order > > > >> to be listed. These involve shake tests, pull out, bending moment, twist > >> > > off > > > >> and a bunch of others. Any hanger that meets U/L's shake and bake tests > >> > > gets > > > >> listed. Now for the kicker, the listed hanger may not and often does not > >> meet the 5 X + 250 criteria. > >> > >> What NFPA 13 says in its own inimitable round about way is this. Use a > >> listed hanger assembly, if you don't then engineer it to meet all of the > >> criteria in 9.1.1.2 (2007). > >> > >> One added point, nothing is specifically listed in NFPA 13. NFPA 13 does > >> give some example illustrations of representative listed product however > >> > > it > > > >> does not specifically list or indorse any products. > >> > >> You can't always go be the illustrations either, for example NFPA 13 > >> > > (2007) > > > >> Figure A.9.1.1, top row third from the left shows a split ring, neat > >> > > little > > > >> hanger especially for sensing line piping and exposed pipe in atriums and > >> the like. Problem is last time I went to order them I could not find a > >> listed split ring from any manufacturer. Now go two spaces to the right, > >> pipe clamps, try to buy a listed 12" pipe clamp can't be done. I could go > >> > > on > > > >> but there is real work to be done. > >> > >> > >> > >> Richard L. Mote ET > >> Designer > >> Rowe Sprinkler systems, Inc. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Chris Cahill" <[email protected]> > >> To: <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 12:51 PM > >> Subject: RE: Hanger capacity > >> > >> > >> > >>> I have seen recently where the fine print on a load factor already > >>> > > included > > > >>> the 250 plus 5x. In my case your 300# would actually be 1750# yielding > >>> 300# > >>> useful for our intent. It wasn't what you are working on, just check >the > >>> fine print or talk to the mfg. Of course at 300#/5#/ft = 60 ft which is > >>> 4x > >>> over designed if this is the case. > >>> > >>> Chris Cahill, P.E. > >>> Fire Protection Engineer > >>> Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > >>> > >>> 763-658-4483 > >>> 763-658-4921 fax > >>> > >>> Email: [email protected] > >>> > >>> Mail: P.O. Box 69 > >>> Waverly, MN 55390 > >>> > >>> Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > >>> Waverly, MN 55390 > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd > >>> Williams > >>> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 11:40 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: Hanger capacity > >>> > >>> I am having to go through some calculations on hangers to see if a > >>> particular truss can handle the sprinkler pipe. The problem is > >>> involving Sammys and since they are not specifically listed in NFPA > >>> 13 (2002), we need to do the calculations. My question has to do > >>> with the swivel rings. > >>> > >>> Section 9.1.1.2 requires the 5x wt of water filled pipe + 250 lbs. > >>> According to the PHD Manufacturing literature I have, a 2" swivel > >>> ring has a design load is 300 lbs. If we deduct the 250, you have 50 > >>> lbs left. Divide that by 5 and you get 10 lbs as the maximum weight > >>> that can be supported. Since 2" water filled pipe weighs 5.17 lb/ft., > >>> the maximum span a 2" hanger can support and meet the NFPA 13 > >>> requirements is 1" - 11". Am I missing something here? > >>> > >>> Todd G. Williams, PE > >>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >>> Stonington, CT > >>> 860.535.2080 > >>> www.fpdc.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >-- > >PARSLEY CONSULTING > >Ken Wagoner, SET > >760.745.6181 voice > >760.745.0537 fax > >[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> e-mail > >www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
