As Roland mentioned, there is going to be quite a discussion at the NFPA 13 ROP meeting in Savannah in a couple of weeks. The Installation Criteria Committee heard a presentation from the CCI folks (recent Antifreeze Study for FPRF) about nitrogen and corrosion prevention. And the committee will discuss a few proposals as they debate and then vote on the issue. CCI has had a solid anti-corrosion presence at the last couple of NFPA 13 meetings and their views are finally getting some legs. Air release can be good and bad. Less oxygen equals less corrosion (in spite of Brad's rantings about molecular intercourse and shot gun weddings). More water (liquid water, Brad) equals less oxygen in a system. But more water also means higher pressure swings when the temperature changes. The wrong end of that requires pressure relief valves (something that 2010 implemented for all wet systems already, a CCI proposal). In my mind the Committee needs to see documented proof that "anti-corrosion" efforts are needed and that they are cost effective. So far, there has not been a single 'case study' presented. All of the debate (outside of science facts) has involved anectdotal statements and hearsay. We can all make alot of money on "anti-corrosion" efforts, but we should see if we are really saving an owner money. The anti-corrosion products are good products and they are obviously effective in a targeted effort. The folks representing these entities are doing a fine job and are well respected for their professionalism. But I'd really like to see some data besides how much corrosion is possible. If you want to see some cool stuff, watch the FPS-CMI presentation on the newer generation of Nitrogen Generators, until then there is good reading available at: http://www.fpscmi.com/research.htm I'll give a free admission to one Academy webinar to the first "non-committee member" that can tell me what "sparged" means in relation to this newer product. (hey Brad, think molecular brides) :-)
It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. Sincerely, Cecil Bilbo Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Parkland College Champaign, IL 217.607.0325 www.sprinkleracademy.com [email protected] OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!! > Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:11:42 -0800 > Subject: Re: Code reference for replacing remote end inspectors test > withalisted Test N' Drain Valve.... > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > Brad, > > I know I prattle and I suspect there are many Forum correspondents > that see my name and immediately hit discard message. In, I believe a > private post, I suggested that for you to avoid a similar fate that > you back off from this number masturbation. I'm afraid you've hit my > "too obtuse to take the time to decipher relative to the gain." Scot > Deal is quite arcane with his couplets, et.al., but the payoff for the > comment is usually worth the work. Your conclusions may very well be > valuable but I'll never know because this damned blog already is far > too time consuming. That is why I expect others do to my posts what > I'll be doing to yours. Sorry for what you may consider a brutal > attack. > > On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 9:35 AM, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: > > So, we can't just stick a Potter auto air release at the top, or a couple > > 1/2" ball valves to get air out? My fitters don't know a lot about > > molecules, but they can open a valve until the air stops and water starts. > > Benefits: > > Material on the shelf or in the truck. > > Little additional cost. > > Little or no training required. > > No need to find listed transparent tube material. > > No need to worry about molecular lineage of bastards produced- we just get > > some water in a bucket we can throw down a slop sink. > > AFSA membership can devote its resources to its mission, not buying hard > > drive space to archive 100 further posts of this discussion. > > Drawbacks: > > Can't see the air water mixture in the transparent sprig that we'll spend > > $100k getting listed once its engineered. > > Can't spend 2 hard drives full of pixels on discussing appropriate formulas > > and potential materials. > > We keep a dozen contributors/readers who don't unsubscribe in disgust. > > > > So is there a formula to weigh the various metrics so we can definitively > > determine which of the two options is best? I can implement mine today for > > $25. > > > > So for AFSA storage space and for those recvg emails on mobile phones, a > > reminder to trim replies! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > > Casterline > > Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 8:47 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Code reference for replacing remote end inspectors test > > withalisted Test N' Drain Valve.... > > > > 2H2+O2<->2H2O > > I imagine a 1x2-0 transparent sprig- the water looks more bubbly at the top. > > I remove the water, now I just have air, right? Half the time. From the > > chemistry law of mass action, half the time the bubble is 'full of air', and > > the other half it is 'full of water'. The right side of the above reaction > > is water in the vapor state. Low pressure favors dissociation (right to > > left), high pressure goes left to right. As the temperature and pressure go > > up and down, the reaction goes more one way than the other, to maintain > > 'dynamic equilibria'. The same thing happens when some air or some water is > > removed. Instead of thinking each bubble is air half the time and water the > > other half, it might be equivalent to think half the bubbles are air and the > > other half water- if so, I am shocked by the practical implication: say > > after the hydro, or drain down and recharge, a fitter spends an hour going > > around to the high points getting the air out of the water--- 30 minutes of > > that time was spent getting the water out of the water! :) And what does the > > 4/5 nitrogen do during the reaction? Maybe it elopes with the carbon in the > > steel, and they name every one of their kids Mic Foreman. The only > > explanation I have been able to come up with for myself as to why, given > > systems across the street from each other, one has mic and false alarm > > problems but the other one does not, is simply one has continuous high > > pressure maintenance, i.e., jockey pump, and the other does not. It has to > > be deeper than this, but it might be a start-- some stats would be nice. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bobby McCullough [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 2:13 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Code reference for replacing remote end inspectors test > > withalisted Test N' Drain Valve.... > > > > Venting the air has been around a long time but I don't believe it is an > > everyday practice nor is it required by code (yet). A listed, automatic > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
