You guys are fun and it is hilarious to read your banter (when I can), but I was told once that I am (not an engineer) only able to follow the guidelines presented. And NEARLY every question I ask NFPA gets answered with a "we can't predict every exact situation, so you have use the standard as a guideline" kind of answer, I am going to use the following method until shown other wise:
Assuming QR and non combustible.. 1) Go with the One level of calcs school of thought since I can document that in 13 UNLESS an engineer has instructed us further. 2) Get the Engineer to review and sign off on item #1. 3) Reduce the demand are if I can legally. 4) Calc both levels for my peace of mind (individually) 5) then make sure I leave lotsof cushion in order to be conservative... I THINK that keeps me from playing engineer, gives me something to hang my hat on and by leaving the extra cushion provides some safety. I hope this will prevent a lawyer from asking the "what credentials do you possess that allowed you to make the decision to blah blah blah". Of course, please understand with no sarcasm, that in my immediate area an engineer with a true experienced background in fire sprinkler operation are very hard to come by. Have a good night, Greg On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 7:24 PM, Todd Williams <[email protected]> wrote: > It's way past my dinner time, but I have to respond. The anvil does play a > part, but since the only guidance I could find is what FMG had said, I will > weigh that into my thinking. What do you do with something like this when > you don't know? When does an obstruction become a cloud? Who knows? How will > the ceiling jet react with an 8 x 8 cloud vs a 16 x 16? Too many unknowns. > Have to take the conservative approach. My justification with clients is > that we do not know how the sprinklers are going to react under a cloud, so > we have to plan for all options. > > I don't have a copyright on this, but don't use me as a reference unless > you send me a HUGE check and at least get it covered under my insurance. > > By the way Ron, I prefer "Merlinesque" to voodoo. > > > At 06:58 PM 3/28/2011, you wrote: > >Now I don't get to do engineering so I have to follow 13 like Steve > >said. Clouds are like overhead doors or any other horizontal > >obstruction and 13 says I can ignore an entire tier (least demanding). > >I can calc more heads if I like but that's jut 'cause I'm guessing I > >ought to. If I don't it doesn't look right to me but again a guess. > >Now Todd can engineer a solution and, like he says, there's no testing > >so any "engineering" he does is voodoo engineering. Very similar to my > >guess. In my case though I can at least say I did what the genii (yes > >that's right-genius is singular for genii) at NFPA, the real experts, > >told me to do. If I'm uncomfortable with that I can suggest the moron > >that thought clouds looked cool should hire Todd to "engineer" a > >solution and I'll do exactly what I'm told (for extra dough of course, > >and particularly if the spec said design to 13, 'cause I didn't add > >the clouds, the clouds aren't mine, nor the building, nor the > >solution). Of course Todd is going to say calc both tiers because he > >has no engineering solution but his parts go on the anvil along with > >accepting the check. And Todd is not doing bad engineering but is > >merely unable to actually provide a real engineered solution due to > >lack of data. His solution then is also a guess but a conservative > >one. Well, know we're full circle and Bob has chosen that conservative > >approach and Todd misses his car payment because he's a good guy and > >told us all his secret. Reminds me of the Dilbert where the dog goes > >into the jewelry store and announces to the proprietor, "How can you > >charge huge sums of money for rocks you just pick up off the ground?" > >The proprietor has a thought cloud, "Damn, he's on to us!" And then in > >the word bubble says, "I'll give you this free bag of diamonds if you > >keep your mouth shut." The final panel has the dog walking down the > >street with a bag of diamonds. All in fun Todd--You know I love you, > >man. > > > >On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Bob Knight <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Bad answer Todd, baaaaad answer! But I think I'm going to go with it. > It means up'ing the branch lines 1 size and throwing in a grid for the area > affected. Neither of which is really a big deal, this time. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams > >> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:03 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: Cloud Calculations > >> > >> The problem is that no one knows how sprinklers in a room with ceiling > clouds are going to react. I almost always calculate the full compliment for > that reason. FM Global requires all to be calculated. I did an FMG job last > year, 2500 sqft design area with clouds; 50 sprinklers in the calc area. > Overkill, probably. > >> > >> We really won't know what the right answer is until we get some fire > testing. > >> > >> > >> At 05:47 PM 3/28/2011, you wrote: > >>>What would the consensus be (ok, ok, I know this is the forum, but...) > in an open office enviro with uprights at the ceiling and pendent's in the > ceiling clouds in regards to calc's? I will have a 1500 sf area w/ no > reduction. I will obviously be calc'ing all the uprights w/in the design > area, but what about the pendent's in the clouds? Do I calc all the ceiling > cloud heads w/in the DA? Two heads? > >>> > >>>Thanks, > >>> > >>>Bob Knight > >>>(208) 639-8790 Direct Phone > >>>(208) 639-8791 Direct Fax > >>>(208) 994-1439 Cell > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>>[email protected] > >>>http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >>> > >>>For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >>> > >>>To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > >>>(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> > >> Todd G. Williams, PE > >> Fire Protection Design/Consulting > >> Stonington, CT > >> 860.535.2080 > >> www.fpdc.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >> > >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >> > >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >> > > > > > > > >-- > >Ron Greenman > >Instructor > >Fire Protection Engineering Technology > >Bates Technical College > >1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > >[email protected] > > > >http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > >253.680.7346 > >253.576.9700 (cell) > > > >Member: > >ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > > >They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > >Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860.535.2080 > www.fpdc.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
