Thanks Steve, knew I could count on you!!! So I'm looking and can't seem to find the actual code for the MJ restriction under buildings, you don't happen to know it off the top of your head do you? Not sure if it's in CBC or CFC but I'm looking through both.
Rocci Cetani III, CET Lead Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 [email protected] www.norcalfire.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 1:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings We have state code amendments that further restrict NFPA 13/24 requirements. No mechanical joints can be located under foundations or buildings, so you either have to rise up outside and penetrate above the foundation or use a one-piece in-building riser sweep to come up through the slab. These provisions assume a riser located at the exterior perimeter of the building; if you have to run piping underground, the same provisions apply in CA as in the parent document. 10.6.2 states "Where approved ..." so this is up to the AHJ in the first place. If special means and methods for protection of the piping is acceptable to the AHJ, then (1), (2) and (3) may be applied but that's all got to be done to a standard of care that is acceptable to the AHJ. As a rule, most are spooked enough by the prohibition in 10.6.1 that they'll only accept engineered solutions so the "running pipe in covered trenches" becomes a reinforced concrete chase that turns out to be a deal-breaker in just about every case. We've done it only on military projects in CA, and that's been due to the anti-terrorism stuff in the UFC's where they want the FLS systems components away from the exterior walls so they can't be compromised by an attack on or an explosion outside of the building. In those cases, the SEOR has made us a cool little concrete trench in which we can run the pipe. A couple of our buildings were open uses so we didn't even bury the pipe, just covered it with metal panels like grating or diamond plate. SL -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rocci Cetani 3 Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings Thanks Mark. Hopefully our California expert Steve Leyton chimes in. Rocci Cetani III, CET Lead Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 [email protected] www.norcalfire.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings Could be (I'll defer to the locals). The one-piece thing is something I know the Air Force/ Air National Guard allows as a means to avoid a joint under aircraft hangar buildings. NFPA doesn't restrict the type of pipe under the building (as long as it's an approved fire protection pipe material). Again, you may have engineer's preferences at work, or other agency requirements. Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rocci Cetani 3 Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 1:45 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings Mark- We are running under the entire ramp (about 18' long) It's a switchback ramp so the (e) main will be running under the top landing of the ramp. I don't design a lot of underground but when I do we have always been instructed to transition to DI or a 1 piece stainless steel riser from our UG subs and or local FM's because the PVC isn't allow under the footings......is this maybe just a California thing? Rocci Cetani III, CET Lead Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 [email protected] www.norcalfire.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 11:34 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings Rocci - There is no restriction regarding running lead-in piping under footings. The restriction is how far into the building you run the line. The concern is the damage created by the failure of a (normally) large diameter fire main, as well as the extensive downtime required to repair such a main if it were located a large distance from the outside of the building. Generally speaking you are to bring the main up as close to the outside wall as practical given your circumstances. Exceptions are granted if you rout the pipe in a trench in the building floor with a removable cover. NFA 24 or chapter 10 of NFPA 13 will give you this guidance. In your situation I'd want to know if you are crossing under the narrow dimension of the ADA ramp or if the entire ramp covers the pipe. In either case I don't think you violate NFPA guidance, per se. But if there's a way to avoid having the entire ramp over this main it should be considered. I.e., it's more of a best practices issue. Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rocci Cetani 3 Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 1:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: underground pipe under building footings Before I go digging through a bunch of books I figured I'd try and save some time by asking all you EXPERTS. Does anyone know which code states underground fire service can't run under footings? We have a project where a chemical bunker is being built and the ADA accessible ramp up to the bunker is being built directly over an (e) 10" C-900 fire service and our new tap that is going to feed the system in the bunker. Thanks in advance for your responses. Rocci Cetani III, CET Lead Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 [email protected] www.norcalfire.com <http://www.norcalfire.com/> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. 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