One last item to consider is the structural engineer.....I've recently watched one lose his Sh$! When the UG contractor started to run an UG line too close to a footer. The UG guy tried to put up a fight but the structural guys are the closest thing to god on the design team (they may even have more power than the elevator guys).
Cheers Don -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rocci Cetani 3 Sent: 2016/05/05 7:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings Thank Ken......would probably have helped if I wasn't looking at the 1st print of the 2010 edition on the public codes website. (damn favorites button I forgot to delete!) Its officially the end of the week and this week kicked my ass Thanks for everyone's help. Rocci Cetani III, CET Lead Designer Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A Morgan Hill, CA 93037 P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 F-(408) 776-1590 [email protected] www.norcalfire.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Parsley Consulting Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 3:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: underground pipe under building footings Rocci, Chapter 80 of the CFC, page 513, revising section NFPA 13, 10.6.5, "Pipe joints shall not be installed under foundation footings. The pipe under the building or building foundation shall not contain mechanical joints." Also, on page 519, there's the same modification to NFPA 24, 10.6.5. And, just to show you I know how to over-react, in a somewhat high decibel conversation with one of the guys on the committee who made those changes, I asked if that meant I couldn't use a flanged fitting, as it wasn't a mechanical joint (mj) fitting. His response was to make suggestions about my parents which I know are not true as I have a photograph of their wedding. He later informed me that it meant "any" joint under a building, and hung up. *Ken Wagoner, SET *Parsley Consulting*** *350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 *Escondido, California 92025 *****Phone 760-745-6181* Visit our website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> *** On 05/05/2016 2:59 PM, Rocci Cetani 3 wrote: > Thanks Steve, knew I could count on you!!! So I'm looking and can't > seem to find the actual code for the MJ restriction under buildings, > you don't happen to know it off the top of your head do you? Not sure > if it's in CBC or CFC but I'm looking through both. > > Rocci Cetani III, CET > Lead Designer > Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III > > Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. > 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A > Morgan Hill, CA 93037 > P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 > F-(408) 776-1590 > > > [email protected] > www.norcalfire.com > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it > may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The > information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named > above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent > responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action > in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please > immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 1:43 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings > > We have state code amendments that further restrict NFPA 13/24 requirements. > No mechanical joints can be located under foundations or buildings, so > you either have to rise up outside and penetrate above the foundation > or use a one-piece in-building riser sweep to come up through the > slab. These provisions assume a riser located at the exterior > perimeter of the building; if you have to run piping underground, the same provisions apply in CA as in > the parent document. 10.6.2 states "Where approved ..." so this is up to > the AHJ in the first place. If special means and methods for > protection of the piping is acceptable to the AHJ, then (1), (2) and > (3) may be applied but that's all got to be done to a standard of care that is acceptable to > the AHJ. As a rule, most are spooked enough by the prohibition in 10.6.1 > that they'll only accept engineered solutions so the "running pipe in > covered trenches" becomes a reinforced concrete chase that turns out > to be a deal-breaker in > just about every case. We've done it only on military projects in CA, and > that's been due to the anti-terrorism stuff in the UFC's where they > want the FLS systems components away from the exterior walls so they > can't be compromised by an attack on or an explosion outside of the > building. In those cases, the SEOR has made us a cool little concrete trench in which we > can run the pipe. A couple of our buildings were open uses so we didn't > even bury the pipe, just covered it with metal panels like grating or > diamond plate. > > SL > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Rocci Cetani 3 > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:13 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings > > Thanks Mark. Hopefully our California expert Steve Leyton chimes in. > > Rocci Cetani III, CET > Lead Designer > Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III > > Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. > 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A > Morgan Hill, CA 93037 > P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 > F-(408) 776-1590 > > > [email protected] > www.norcalfire.com > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it > may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The > information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named > above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent > responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action > in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please > immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 12:00 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings > > Could be (I'll defer to the locals). > > The one-piece thing is something I know the Air Force/ Air National > Guard allows as a means to avoid a joint under aircraft hangar > buildings. NFPA doesn't restrict the type of pipe under the building > (as long as it's an approved fire protection pipe material). Again, > you may have engineer's preferences at work, or other agency requirements. > > > Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection > Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | > http://www.kfiengineers.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Rocci Cetani 3 > Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 1:45 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings > > Mark- We are running under the entire ramp (about 18' long) It's a > switchback ramp so the (e) main will be running under the top landing > of the ramp. I don't design a lot of underground but when I do we > have always been instructed to transition to DI or a 1 piece stainless > steel riser from our UG subs and or local FM's because the PVC isn't > allow under the footings......is this maybe just a California thing? > > Rocci Cetani III, CET > Lead Designer > Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III > > Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. > 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A > Morgan Hill, CA 93037 > P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 > F-(408) 776-1590 > > > [email protected] > www.norcalfire.com > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it > may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The > information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named > above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent > responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action > in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please > immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. > Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2016 11:34 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: underground pipe under building footings > > Rocci - There is no restriction regarding running lead-in piping under > footings. The restriction is how far into the building you run the > line. The concern is the damage created by the failure of a (normally) > large diameter fire main, as well as the extensive downtime required > to repair such a main if it were located a large distance from the outside of the building. > Generally speaking you are to bring the main up as close to the > outside wall as practical given your circumstances. Exceptions are > granted if you rout the pipe in a trench in the building floor with a removable cover. > > NFA 24 or chapter 10 of NFPA 13 will give you this guidance. > > In your situation I'd want to know if you are crossing under the > narrow dimension of the ADA ramp or if the entire ramp covers the > pipe. In either case I don't think you violate NFPA guidance, per se. > But if there's a way to avoid having the entire ramp over this main it should be considered. > I.e., it's more of a best practices issue. > > > Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection > Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | > http://www.kfiengineers.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Rocci Cetani 3 > Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2016 1:24 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: underground pipe under building footings > > Before I go digging through a bunch of books I figured I'd try and > save some time by asking all you EXPERTS. Does anyone know which code > states underground fire service can't run under footings? We have a > project where a chemical bunker is being built and the ADA accessible > ramp up to the bunker is being built directly over an (e) 10" C-900 > fire service and our new tap that is going to feed the system in the bunker. > > > > Thanks in advance for your responses. > > > > Rocci Cetani III, CET > > Lead Designer > > Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III > > > > Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. > > 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A > > Morgan Hill, CA 93037 > > P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 > > F-(408) 776-1590 > > > > > > [email protected] > > www.norcalfire.com <http://www.norcalfire.com/> > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it > may contain confidential information > > belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use > of individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended > recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this > message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any > disclosure, copying or taking of any action in reliance on the > contents of this information is strictly prohibited. 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