Rocci,
Here in Florida we have a system where by the Building Departments require a GC
to provide Permit Applications from Fire Sprinkler Contractors in order to
apply for the General Building Permit. Our Florida Fire Sprinkler Contractors
Association worked diligently to have the process revised in this way.
Twenty Five years ago we had that same problem here....but with the help of the
Fire Service Professionals, Fire Sprinklers have become a trade on equal
footing with all of the others. Also...Fire Sprinkler "Concept" drawings must
be submitted to building departments for review along with the A & E plans for
other trades.
If a Fire Sprinkler Contractor here doesn't schedule his work in concert with
the construction schedule he has only himself to blame. John W. Farabee,
On Thursday, July 14, 2016 1:53 PM, Rocci Cetani 3 <roc...@norcalfire.com>
wrote:
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said than done…….can’t be the 1st one in if the building is already being built
and it’s just going out to sprinkler contractors to be bid….all I’m saying is
sprinklers are always put on the back burner, last ones to get contracts, last
to have priority. Rocci Cetani III, CETDesignerWater-Based Fire Protections
Systems Layout, Nicet Level III Northern California Fire Protection Services
Inc.16840 Joleen Way Bldg. AMorgan Hill, CA 93037P-(408) 776-1580
EXT.111F-(408) 776-1590 roc...@norcalfire.comwww.norcalfire.com
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From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On
Behalf Of tcfire
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 10:23 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Change Orders In 43 years I have learned to be the first trade
in...and the first trade out. Prepare your shop drWings with tie down
dimensions and elevations...distributed to all trades. Put an end date for
acceptance on your transmittal. Once that date pases get your pipe on job and
don't look back. Possession is 9/10ths of the law and if your not in first you
will be burried. Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S7. -------- Original
message --------From: Rocci Cetani 3 <roc...@norcalfire.com> Date: 7/14/16
11:55 AM (GMT-05:00) To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE:
Change Orders Glad to see we aren't the only company dealing with the EXACT
same
issue.......how long is it going to take before architects/builders realize
they need to get sprinkler contractors involved a lot earlier in the
process.
Rocci Cetani III, CET
Designer
Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III
Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc.
16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A
Morgan Hill, CA 93037
P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111
F-(408) 776-1590
roc...@norcalfire.com
www.norcalfire.com
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it may
contain confidential information
belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of
individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, or
the employee or agent responsible to deliver this message to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of
any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please
immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Hill
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 8:42 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Change Orders
I once had an A/E argue with me about coordination on a project and told me
to just go by his coordinated plans. I told my installer to go get a core
driller, I then pointed to a spot on the exterior wall and said I need a 6"
hole right there. The A/E asked why the hell I needed a hole there, so I
explained since the existing building is actually 6' to 8' shorter than what
he claims (depending on which dimensions you use), that I need to install
this "coordinated" piping out there. We never saw that guy again.
The problem today, as I see it, is everything is driven by time. Contractors
agree to ridiculous 4 week schedules not realizing (or perhaps they do) that
sprinkler plan review takes 2-3 weeks and you have to wait another 2-3 weeks
for your scheduled hydro. Oh, they release on the project 2 weeks in after
they realize sprinklers are in the way of the new walls. It is a struggle to
maintain quality control when you are always trying to catch up. I am
guessing this happens with all aspects of the construction industry from
initial architectural design all the way through construction and
installation. Our industry is unique. Most other trades can work off of the
approved building plans and permit, not so for sprinkler and alarm, we are
required to generate our own drawings and apply for separate permits. This
is exactly how it should be. Would sure be nice if construction didn't start
until ALL permits were obtained. It amazes me how many times contractors get
a demo permit and go so far as to have all the walls one sided with drywall
and all the other trades roughed in before the building permit has been
issued and then scream up and down how sprinkler is holding them up. Yet, I
still can't even submit my plans because they do not have an approved
building permit, which is the very first thing the AHJ checks when we submit
our application.
Of course there are exceptions to everything and not all contractors are
ruthless, but it is harder to find the good ones.
Anyone else been in this industry long enough to remember when it was fun?
Fun is not how I would describe the last 6-8 years.
Mike Hill
-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Justin Stewart
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 11:04 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Change Orders
Michael,
You hit the nail on the head I was just kind of curious if it was just us
that had that issue and if I was missing something. I have also had a GC
recently tell me well your designer should have caught that and asked the
A/E. I went as far as going back through the entire bid documents and found
the issue and called the mechanical engineer himself and he didn't really
tell me why there were so many conflicts on this project until I told him I
was in school for mechanical engineering as well and just wanted to learn
how to avoid these kind of issues. Long story short he told me it was the
structural engineer and no one overlays anything anymore.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 14, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Michael Hill <mi...@phoenixfp.net> wrote:
>
> In our recent experience, it doesn't matter if you get an approved
> change order or not. The GC just refuses to pay for it at the end of
> the project claiming they couldn't get it approved by the building owner.
>
> In general, it has to be determined why the sprinkler pipe is in
> conflict with other trades. If there is any chance that the sprinkler
> company is at fault you may as well move the pipe. It usually isn't
> worth ruining a relationship with a contractor over it. If it is
> solely someone else's fault AND a substantial amount of work to
> correct then we would pursue a change order and would not do any work
> until it was approved. Small changes are just made next time we are on
> site, usually not worth arguing over, no matter who is at fault.
>
> All the rules are subject to change from project to project and from
> GC to GC.
>
> Mike Hill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sprinklerforum
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
> On Behalf Of Justin Stewart
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 10:00 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Change Orders
>
> I am just curious how everyone else in the fire sprinkler industry
> deals with change orders. For example, everything for a project is
> prefabricated besides the return bends. Say you have an issue with the
> HVAC and your main has to be moved how do you go about that? Do you
request for a change order?
> Even if in your quote you have a clause stating after material has
> been ordered anything extra for moving pipe is an extra to the
> contract
amount.
> Does this fall under coordination? Thank you very much for any replies
> in advance.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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