I wish more firms followed your business model. We do have a few good engineers in our area and we have very good relationships with those firms.
We have, unfortunately, proven several firms (or at least individuals in the firm) incompetent and have had owners and managers try to hire us directly to do all the engineering work. We are not staffed, licensed or insured to do so. Just this week, I have been in conversations about why existing light hazard office spaces cannot be turned into ordinary hazard group 2 office spaces without some extensive research and supporting hydraulic calculations, which doesn't come free when not specifically called out at time of bid. I may have said something to the affect of, a little more time surveying existing conditions and a little less time on making sure the wall finish matches the carpet..... I hope those were inside words. I have used the, sometimes arm-overs help strategy. Most folks (including some of my employees) think I somehow fudged the numbers in my calculation program when demand drops. I may not totally understand the math behind it, but I know balance is good and bigger isn't always better. Rock on Steve. We sure could use more firms like yours, ones that understand the importance of getting it right early on as well as the first time. Most firms just point to the only clause they have in their contract that is in large print, "we are not responsible for omissions or errors in these documents". Mike Hill -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 2:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Change Orders Well, I guess it's time to jump in here. For the record, I spent the first 14+ years of my career in contracting but the past 21 have been as a design consultant. I still and will always consider myself a "sprinkie" but the fact is that I'm the A/E. But I'm proud of my firm's reputation for competence and I've trained our staff and tried to maintain a corporate culture where we're not "that guy". Our work is 75+% A/E with architect and developer clients; about 15% of our revenues come from sprinkler contractors for whom we work as a subconsultant and about 10% of our work is specialty consulting, MIC and other impairments. So I think that I have a pretty good perspective on all of this. Mike hits the nail squarely with regard to the ridiculous timing and lack of lead times afforded the sprinkler contractor to design on a deferred basis. In fact, I'd say that most developers and general contractors don't give a damn about how much work is actually involved in designing a sprinkler and/or standpipe system today. Hold the contract until the last minute, let it and then start beating on the sub for submittals. I've said countless times that sprinkler contracting is the dumbest business model in the industry - you take on all the liability regardless of the countless variables, you don't receive authorization to proceed in a timely manner, you don't get the background files and cooperation of the other disciplines in a timely manner (if ever) and all of this is a race to get pipe on the job and begin installation of a system that is going to have to be squeezed into a building that was design by an architect who gave ZERO consideration to the sprinkler syste m. Like, there's not even a riser room. However, the 200 hours spent on interior design of the lobby and public restrooms will look fantastic ... When I started my firm, I vowed to be part of the solution and not the problem. To that end we have created a business model that considers contracting practices, the requirements of the AHJs, the need for real and sincere partnering with our installing contractors and of course, the commitment to code-compliance and constructable designs. We serve as Engineer of Record (EOR) on mostly public projects: we have two agencies in California that do not allow deferred submittals so architects in fact do have to undertake the design and coordination "up front". This is of no value is the EOR isn't competent and many of the architects in our markets are regressive regarding sprinklers and go with the lowest of the low prices they can find. Our firm charges a lot more than what sprinkler contractors or many of our ME competitors do, but we firmly believe that our work speaks for itself and we have clients using us voluntarily on private projects now because they've learned the value of our services. We currently have 3 retail projects and a large warehouse campus where we're doing full design packages that will be bid and installed as "plans and specs" instead of deferred. We also displace the civil engineer as EOR for private site fire main system improvements on many projects so now we own the entire design from the property lines in. We follow the projects from conceptual design through final acceptance testing and we work as advocates for both the owner and the installers. Yes it's a fine line and yes, to a degree it's fence sitting. But, it's starting to get traction. Coordination of a sprinkler system is critical. An early-phase design doesn't offset the need to coordinate trades on a construction team. When we design a system and obtain approval and permit, it establishes the basis of design for that system. We include a set of coordination notes on all of our documents that lay out the intent: use these documents as your base files to create coordinated shop drawings with the design team. Those notes outline that the exact elevation of piping, the exact horizontal location of piping, the lengths of hangers, sprigs and pendent drops are all subject to change and final verification by the installing contractor. We specify materials as a basis but if you want to use a different equivalent sprinkler or coupling, the notes and spec's afford you the option of processing "no cost" change orders for substitutions. We furnish CAD files to the installing contractor so the approved design can be detailed for fabrication. We review the coor dinated shop drawings and run new calc's if there are significant changes to be sure that the basis of design is intact. Anyone with a passing knowledge of hydraulics should know that if you have to arm some sprinklers over off of a line that doesn't have arm-overs, the system demand actually goes down because the overflow is reduced by lowering the net K-factor of the drops. We try to inform the inspectors and other stakeholders of where changes are impactful or not. We work hand-in-hand with our installers to assure to the greatest extent possible that they can prosecute the approved design without radical changes. But if there are changes to the approved basis of design (perhaps because of a conflict or omission on our part), we process those construction changes with the AHJ and we solicit a fair additive CO from the contractor. I like to think that we are the installer's best friend on the project because we're very fair when it comes to assessing when an additive CO is in order. But the contracting community has to remember that there are two aspects to a CO: entitlement and value. If our contractors are partnered on the project, it goes smoothly but if not ... Just because you're entitled to a CO, it doesn't mean you get paid list price and Means labor for the work. We tell all of our installing subs (if we're working with them for the first time), "We can be your best friend or worst enemy on this project." Don't eff with us on cutting or lengthening hanger rods unless the entire project has had to be reconfigured. Don't charge us $25 for a 2" grooved ell. Don't try to tell us it took 24 hours to add 2 sway braces - the crap we've seen the past 3 or 4 years is just awesome. And here's the really important part: when you're doing your shop drawings, DON'T change the design just because. We've seen contractors completely redesign the work because they want to save a few sprinklers. Guess what? You don't get to do that. You bid the work, you detail the work, you install the work and there are almost always very good reasons why a design looks a certain way, even if it's not the cheapest solution. We're now drawing in 3D, along with the other disciplines and architect on the design team. The number of conflicts in the field on our latest projects has dropped while the overall quality of our design product continues to rise. Dramatically. And I'm proud of that and committed to being the BEST 3rd party design firm in the markets we serve. But I also understand that we're the exception and that probably 85% or more of the EORs who oversee fire protection work are uninformed asshats. And I LOVE that because we're getting new clients every few weeks who, after a couple projects, are telling us how glad they are that the finally found a service provider who can do viable designs and get them built. I'll take some credit for that but we still rely on the proactive and professional intent of our contractor partners. If you go into a project assuming the worst, you'll get contention. If you go in open-minded, I've got your back because the faster that project gets completed as closely as possible to the approved plans, the better we all do and we're in that part of it together. Steve L. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Justin Stewart Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 10:17 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Change Orders I believe if you have to have a sprinkler system. The A/E should be required to do the shop drawings and everything so it will be coordinated a little better and they can overlay it with their drawings. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2016, at 10:55 AM, Rocci Cetani 3 <roc...@norcalfire.com> wrote: > > Glad to see we aren't the only company dealing with the EXACT same > issue.......how long is it going to take before architects/builders > realize they need to get sprinkler contractors involved a lot earlier > in the process. > > Rocci Cetani III, CET > Designer > Water-Based Fire Protections Systems Layout, Nicet Level III > > Northern California Fire Protection Services Inc. > 16840 Joleen Way Bldg. A > Morgan Hill, CA 93037 > P-(408) 776-1580 EXT.111 > F-(408) 776-1590 > > > roc...@norcalfire.com > www.norcalfire.com > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message and any document accompanying it > may contain confidential information belonging to the sender. The > information is intended only for the use of individual or entity named > above. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent > responsible to deliver this message to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any disclosure, copying or taking of any action > in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please > immediately notify us by telephone to arrange for return of the documents. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] > On Behalf Of Michael Hill > Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 8:42 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Change Orders > > I once had an A/E argue with me about coordination on a project and > told me to just go by his coordinated plans. I told my installer to go > get a core driller, I then pointed to a spot on the exterior wall and said I need a 6" > hole right there. The A/E asked why the hell I needed a hole there, so > I explained since the existing building is actually 6' to 8' shorter > than what he claims (depending on which dimensions you use), that I > need to install this "coordinated" piping out there. We never saw that guy again. > > The problem today, as I see it, is everything is driven by time. > Contractors agree to ridiculous 4 week schedules not realizing (or > perhaps they do) that sprinkler plan review takes 2-3 weeks and you > have to wait another 2-3 weeks for your scheduled hydro. Oh, they > release on the project 2 weeks in after they realize sprinklers are in > the way of the new walls. It is a struggle to maintain quality control > when you are always trying to catch up. I am guessing this happens > with all aspects of the construction industry from initial > architectural design all the way through construction and > installation. Our industry is unique. Most other trades can work off > of the approved building plans and permit, not so for sprinkler and > alarm, we are required to generate our own drawings and apply for > separate permits. This is exactly how it should be. Would sure be nice > if construction didn't start until ALL permits were obtained. It > amazes me how many times contractors get a demo permit and go so far > as to have all the walls one sided with drywall and all the other > trades roughed in before the building permit has been issued and then > scream up and down how sprinkler is holding them up. Yet, I still > can't even submit my plans because they do not have an approved building permit, which is the very first thing the AHJ checks when we submit our application. > > Of course there are exceptions to everything and not all contractors > are ruthless, but it is harder to find the good ones. > > Anyone else been in this industry long enough to remember when it was fun? > Fun is not how I would describe the last 6-8 years. > > Mike Hill > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] > On Behalf Of Justin Stewart > Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 11:04 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Change Orders > > Michael, > > You hit the nail on the head I was just kind of curious if it was just > us that had that issue and if I was missing something. I have also > had a GC recently tell me well your designer should have caught that > and asked the A/E. I went as far as going back through the entire bid > documents and found the issue and called the mechanical engineer > himself and he didn't really tell me why there were so many conflicts > on this project until I told him I was in school for mechanical > engineering as well and just wanted to learn how to avoid these kind > of issues. Long story short he told me it was the structural engineer and no one overlays anything anymore. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 14, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Michael Hill <mi...@phoenixfp.net> wrote: >> >> In our recent experience, it doesn't matter if you get an approved >> change order or not. The GC just refuses to pay for it at the end of >> the project claiming they couldn't get it approved by the building owner. >> >> In general, it has to be determined why the sprinkler pipe is in >> conflict with other trades. If there is any chance that the sprinkler >> company is at fault you may as well move the pipe. It usually isn't >> worth ruining a relationship with a contractor over it. If it is >> solely someone else's fault AND a substantial amount of work to >> correct then we would pursue a change order and would not do any work >> until it was approved. Small changes are just made next time we are >> on site, usually not worth arguing over, no matter who is at fault. >> >> All the rules are subject to change from project to project and from >> GC to GC. >> >> Mike Hill >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum >> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] >> On Behalf Of Justin Stewart >> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 10:00 AM >> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> Subject: Change Orders >> >> I am just curious how everyone else in the fire sprinkler industry >> deals with change orders. For example, everything for a project is >> prefabricated besides the return bends. Say you have an issue with >> the HVAC and your main has to be moved how do you go about that? Do >> you > request for a change order? >> Even if in your quote you have a clause stating after material has >> been ordered anything extra for moving pipe is an extra to the >> contract > amount. >> Does this fall under coordination? Thank you very much for any >> replies in advance. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> l >> er.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> l >> er.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
