What if evil tribbles steal the doors for their dilithium crystal mine slave camps? What if someone parks a nuclear missile submarine in hallway? What if the garage is built on a secret gateway to the Forbidden Zone and the Keymaster and the Gatekeeper open the doors at the same time? I love what ifs.
On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:05 PM Steve Leyton <[email protected]> wrote: > PS: I’m assuming that if the corridor is rated that the doors have to be > rated and equipped with self-closers. So we can’t program sprinklers for > every eventuality that entails aberrant actions by occupants. > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *MFP > Design, LLC > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2018 1:02 PM > > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: NFPA 13R - Garages - CPVC > > > > *Your description of accessible by more than one dwelling unit is exactly > the way I view it. But, I got shot down by the AHJ. Their response was: > “What if some one propped open a door?” * > > > > [image: MFP_logo_F] > > Travis Mack, SET > > MFP Design, LLC > > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > > 480-505-9271 > > fax: 866-430-6107 > > email:[email protected] > > > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesign.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=HJ8OA4xyeHAoxXNz5mu%2FYfycgtd5nsFrrpvzulZiNkQ%3D&reserved=0> > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FMFP-Design-LLC%2F92218417692&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=H%2BwdcgK8DLGBcNoqJEvUrzsXngySwkX56Vgf9gM9EGk%3D&reserved=0> > > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> > > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0> > > > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of > low price is forgotten.**”* > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> *On > Behalf Of *Steve Leyton > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 8, 2018 1:00 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: NFPA 13R - Garages - CPVC > > > > 13. My point is only to reinforce the intent of the standard(s) and also > that the manufacturers will warrant the application. > > > > The word that’s in Travis’s way here is “private”. But from a fire hazard > perspective, the garages are still private in scale if I understand > correctly. IMHO, I think the concept of accessible to others besides just > those in a single dwelling unit implies a larger communal space where more > hazardous loads and uses could occur. Individual unit garages that have a > corridor between them and the unit aren’t going to be measurably more > hazardous. I think it’s the intent of the book and the listing to allow > the CPVC. > > > > SL > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Ben Young > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2018 12:49 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: NFPA 13R - Garages - CPVC > > > > Just to be clear Steve, was the that proposal for NFPA 13R or for 13 and > 13R? > > > > On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 2:05 PM Steve Leyton <[email protected]> > wrote: > > For the 2019 edition, I proposed and the committee accepted the following 2 > nd draft comment, creating a new subsection: > > > > “*16.3.9.6.2* Where nonmetallic pipe installed in accordance with > 16.3.9.6 supplies sprinklers in private garage within a dwelling unit not > exceeding 1,000 sq. ft. in area, it shall be permitted to be protected from > the garage compartment by not less than the same wall or ceiling sheathing > that is required by the applicable building code.” > > > > This is NOT the condition Travis described but it does speak to the extent > of the listing and the willingness by the manufacturer to warrant the > product in OH compartments up to 1,000 sq. ft. My intent was to clarify > that it’s NOT the intent of the standard or the product listing limitations > to require steel piping in small parking garages in R2 occupancies > protected by NFPA 13, which is how it went down. We are seeing AHJs in the > southwest requiring double layers of Type ‘X’ and other fairly extreme > measure. One jurisdiction (City of San Diego) has flat-out mandated steel > pipe in the those applications. Going forward, I hope this expands the > application for CPVC to at least homogenize the bill of materials in > attached residential projects. > > > > Travis – you could probably push through an all-CPVC piping plan by > bringing in BlazeMaster or Spears to support your design. > > > > SML > > > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Fire Design > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2018 10:51 AM > *To:* [email protected]; [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: NFPA 13R - Garages - CPVC > > > > I would agree with CPVC because of the manufacturer listing. However, if > you were using a manufacturer that did not have that verbiage and you were > back to your interpretation of 13R I think you are wrong in applying the > aggregate for the 400 sq. ft. rule. 13R specifically calls out "rooms" and > not 'areas'. I personally think it's completely within the scope of 13R to > have a 300 sq. ft. storage room next to a 150 sq. ft. mop closet and be > able to use CPVC to feed each room because individually they're less than > 400 sq. ft. Now, perhaps in the rare event you have a large run of such > rooms next to each other it may be better to have your line out in the > corridor or something and poke a head into each room in lieu of running the > line directly over the run of OH rooms but that is still just a matter of > preference in my opinion. I think the main thing to be concerned about is > being able to provide the correct water density since the piping above is > not going to be compromised if the sprinkler activates and controls the > fire when it should. > > > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> > > > > On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Bob <[email protected]> wrote: > > Travis, > > Based on the product listing, CPVC is appropriate. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Bob Knight, CET III > > 208-318-3057 > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *MFP > Design, LLC > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2018 9:57 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* NFPA 13R - Garages - CPVC > > > > Good morning forum members. I would like to get your take on the concept > below. > > > > We have a building that meets all criteria to be protected per NFPA 13R > (2013 edition). These buildings have garages and dwelling units on the > lower floor separated from the dwelling units by a common corridor. As > such, these garages are not a separate building, but are accessible by more > than one dwelling unit. This requires designing the garages per 7.2 – > Areas outside the dwelling unit. > > > > Since garages are typically OH1, it is the intent to calculate these > spaces with a density of 0.15. The spaces are ≤ 500 sq ft, so 7.2.2.1 > allows us to limit the number of calculated sprinklers to all in a > compartment to a maximum of 4. We are using QR sprinklers in these garages. > > > > Now, here is where the wrinkle comes. Are we permitted to use CPVC above > the ceiling in these areas? The ceiling is double layered gyp board. NFPA > 13R 5.2.2.2 states pipe or tube listed for light hazard shall be permitted > where the room does not exceed 400 sq ft. I was always informed that you > must consider the aggregate area for determining this 400 sq ft. Some of > these garages are just over 400 sq ft. Others are ±300 sq ft. However, > there are multiple garages side by side, so the aggregate is well over 400 > sq ft. In this section, I would state that CPVC would not be an option > above the garages. > > > > But, the listing of CPVC has a section for garages. It states that CPVC > is permitted provided that: > > - Minimum protection of 3/8” gypsum > - Listed sprinklers ≤225°F utilized > - System shall be installed per NFPA 13R > - CPVC pipe / fittings to be installed per manufacturer’s criteria. > > > > I am proposing that the piping be steel due to 5.2.2.2 but the builder is > wanting CPVC and is stating it is possible by the CPVC listing noted > above. The issue is that we have floor joists closely spaced and you can’t > get steel going perpendicular to the floor joists up in the floor joist > space. So, the builder will have to build a soffit where we run > perpendicular to the floor joists. We can be up in the joist space running > parallel. > > > > So, CPVC or steel? What is the forum consensus? > > > > [image: MFP_logo_F] > > Travis Mack, SET > > MFP Design, LLC > > 3356 E Vallejo Ct > > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > > 480-505-9271 > > fax: 866-430-6107 > > email:[email protected] > > > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesign.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=HJ8OA4xyeHAoxXNz5mu%2FYfycgtd5nsFrrpvzulZiNkQ%3D&reserved=0> > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpages%2FMFP-Design-LLC%2F92218417692&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=H%2BwdcgK8DLGBcNoqJEvUrzsXngySwkX56Vgf9gM9EGk%3D&reserved=0> > > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Fu%2FMFPDesign&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=eGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5%2BAZvlHhABSexWY%3D&reserved=0> > > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180&sdata=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D&reserved=0> > > > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of > low price is forgotten.”* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > -- > > > Benjamin Young > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile
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