To complicate matters further, this project is in a jurisdiction using the 2013 edition of 13, which only states 5% by weight or volume of Group A or B plastics. No difference between expanded or non-expanded. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc) 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax) 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
> > On Feb 1, 2023 at 12:39 PM, <Anthony Carrizosa > (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > <html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" > xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" > xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" > xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"; > xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40";> <head> <meta > http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <meta > name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if > !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* > {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape > {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font > Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 > 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* > Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; > font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, > span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; > text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; > font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault > {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 > {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 > {page:WordSection1;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults > v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> > <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" /> > </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body lang="EN-US" link="blue" > vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"> <div class="WordSection1"> > <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Eric your > Correct: <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">NFPA 13 – 2019 edition, > section 20.4.5.4 A Group A Non-expanded Plastics commodity shall be defined > as a product, with or without pallets, that meets one of the following > criteria: <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"> > (5) Exposed, that contains greater than 5 % and up to 25% by volume of group > A <b>expanded plastics</b>.<o:p></o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">But I have > always thought that the volume refers to the carton or crate volume and > how much of the plastic content makes up this volume, now I see that NFPA > does in fact use the term volume when referring to Exposed plastics? > <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div > style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> > <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Rieve <[email protected]> > <br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:12 AM<br> <b>To:</b> > Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers > <[email protected]><br> <b>Subject:</b> > [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> > <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal">Anthony,<o:p></o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Looking on > NFPALink for NFPA 13-2019 20.4.5.4 (5) says expanded plastics. Are you > looking in a hardcopy? Double check if you don’t mind.<o:p></o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal">Eric<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Rieve Fire > Protection<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> > <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt > 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Anthony Carrizosa <<a > href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> > <br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:51 AM<br> <b>To:</b> > Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <<a > href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>><br> > <b>Subject:</b> [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal">Now I see that the next section 20.4.5.4 on Group A > plastics shows an Exposed Volume?<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">(5) > Exposed that contains greater than 5 % and up to 25% by volume of group A > nonexpanded plastics?<o:p></o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Maybe I was > too quick to think that the volume only applies to the box or carton its > in.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div > style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> > <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Anthony Carrizosa <<a > href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> > <br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:36 AM<br> <b>To:</b> > Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <<a > href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>><br> > <b>Subject:</b> [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal">Todd, it’s interesting to note that in NFPA 13 2019 > edition, 20.4.4.1 <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">(4) shows for > <u>Cartoned</u> that contains greater than 5% by > <u>Volume.</u><o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Then (6) <u>Exposed</u> > only refers to <u>weight</u>..<o:p></o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">I think they > are making it clear that if in a carton or wooden crate then it’s the volume > of plastic within the box, if exposed then use the weight of the product > since there is no volume to determine.<o:p></o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Hope this > helps.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060">Anthony > Carrizosa <o:p></o:p></span></b></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060">Project > Manager <b>| </b>Fire Protection <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060">7855 > S 206<sup>th</sup> St Kent, WA 98032<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060">Cell: > <b>206-679-5283</b> | Office Dir: <b>253-341-4593</b> > <o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="187" > height="55" style="width:1.9479in;height:.5729in" id="Picture_x0020_1" > src="cid:[email protected]"><span > style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p></o:p></span></p> > <p class="MsoNormal"><a > href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f&c=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,&typo=1";><span > > style="color:#0563C1">https://archerconstruction.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p> > <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div > style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> > <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Fpdcdesign <<a > href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>> <br> > <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:11 AM<br> <b>To:</b> > Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <<a > href="mailto:[email protected]";>[email protected]</a>><br> > <b>Subject:</b> [Sprinklerforum] Definition of Volume<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div > id="edo-message"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Here is an interesting one > that came up. When I calculate the volume of a commodity, do I include the > air inside the box or only the combustible material?</span><o:p></o:p></p> > </div> <div id="edo-message"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> > </div> <div id="edo-message"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The product is metal inside > a plastic tube inside a cardboard box. The only plastic is the tube. There is > a lot of air space around it inside the cardboard box. If I calculate the > full volume of the box, the plastic would be less than 5% of the volume and > be a Class III commodity. If I only include the combustible material, the > volume of plastic would exceed the 5% (but less than the 25%) of volume and > it would be a Class IV. Of course the only reason I am asking this is that > the existing system can provide protection for Class III but not for Class > IV. Thoughts? </span><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p > class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div id="edo-meta"> <div > id="edo-signature"> <p class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Todd G Williams, > PE<o:p></o:p></span></p> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Fire Protection > Design/Consulting<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p > class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Stonington, > CT<o:p></o:p></span></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a > href="tel:860-535-2080">860-535-2080</a> (ofc)<o:p></o:p></span></p> > </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a > href="tel:860-554-7054">860-554-7054</a> (fax)<o:p></o:p></span></p> > </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><span > style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a > href="tel:860-608-4559">860-608-4559</a> (cell)<o:p></o:p></span></p> > </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> > _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum > mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > >
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