Scot, Very thoughtful answer. The storage is mostly in rack approximately 20 ft high. The racks have wire mesh shelves that have significant openings so it would not be considered solid shelf. Most, but far from all, are on wood pallets.
This is also far from an orderly warehouse. Racks are seemingly randomly located. The commodities (and even specific items) are randomly mixed. There is stuff everywhere (including idle pallets in the aisles). It seems this is also a place where you could see something very different from day to day. This is also a case of a sprinkler designer playing PE (not an Oscar worthy performance). He stated the highest occupancy classification is Class II. While there are some items that qualify as Class II, there is a lot of other higher hazard stuff he missed. Part of this post is to prep myself for the confrontation. Your AI commentsg reminded me of Marvin the Paranoid Android from Hitchiker’s Guide. His programmers wanted to include a human emotion, so they chose low self esteem. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc) 860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax) 860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell) > > On Feb 2, 2023 at 3:18 AM, <å... .... (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > Does air volume matter? It depends. Consider a plastic commodity that when > packaged, is 99% air by volume (exclusive of air in the expanded plastic). I > would not count such a dominant air volume in my consideration. Consider > another plastic commodity that is 9% air by volume. This time, not counting > this air volume would be for me, parsing with too much granularity. Commodity > classification involves judgment-with-uncertainty (as wrote Bellamy, O'Conner > and Steppan, Gates [1,2,3]), and that is good because it is job security. > ChatGPT can pass the bar exam; AI can replace most of our jobs (if we can > only find an acceptable way to program human corruption into its code). NFPA > is just one commodity classification tool. FM has a different version, and > Fig. 3 of DS 8-1 (revision Apr 2021) may be just the ammo for you to be good > to go. However, if AI were doing our job, I would program it to consider > longer time boundaries than only today. Does your client want flexibility in > selling their structure in the future? Will client packaging remain the same > forever? What level of risk tolerance does the client have? What risk > tolerance does the engineer-of-record have? In general, plastic storage > containers and pallets drive the fire protection. You did not mention > pallets, but Matsuda did. You did however, mention cardboard containers, and > this is a favorable factor (tip that hat to old school). Beware the man of > but one book. NFPA is good. But a stakeholder by definition has a stake; NFPA > wraps themselves in immaculate indemnification. Take a look at FM D-S 8-1; > Figure 3 and Table 2, they will help you. FM: they got skin in, and in some > instances, the very talented employees there will share their expert opinion. > Crowdsourcing this judgment-with-uncertainty is brilliant. Crowdsourcing has > proven improvements in accuracy. We need more open judgments, not closed-door > decisions (aka Redlands and Evansville grounders). Advancement comes from > change. Change comes from criticism. Criticism comes from open judgments. > Democracy and accuracy die in darkness. ------- [1]. Bellamy, T. “How to > Determine Commodity Classification It’s Not as Easy as You Think”, > www.telgian.com [2]. O’Conner, B., “Commodity Classifications in NFPA 13” Jan > 18,2022, www.nfpa.org [3]. Steppan, D. Gates, C., “Reassessing the Fire Risk > of Changing Commodity and Packaging”, Aug 17, 2017. www.sprinklerage.com Scot > Deal Excelsior Risk and Fire Engineering gms: +420 606 872 129 Civilization > is a race between education and extinction h.g. wells On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at > 7:29 PM Rick Matsuda <[email protected]> wrote: > I’m old school and I > find it difficult to read and interpret the current > codes so I make my > best WAG’s based on what I believe to be the intent. My > basis is from the > old 231 storage definitions that didn’t have the > percentage of volume > requirements that are so difficult to calculate. > > Class 1- > noncombustible so it doesn’t burn. > Class 2- Class 1 in a box or crate > that will burn. > Class 3- combustible so it burns. > > You should > upgrade one or two classes if there is an “appreciable” amount > of Group A > plastic packaging or if the storage is on plastic pallets > instead of wood > pallets. > > So your metal product is a Class 1 and you upgrade to Class > 2 with the > plastic tubes. To be safe, you can upgrade to Class 3 cause > your system can > still protect it. > > Class 4- Class 1, 2, or 3 with > “appreciable” amount of plastics. > > Therefore, my WAG’s says that it’s > a Class 3 commodity. > Just cause I’m curious, what exactly is this metal > piece that’s packed in > a plastic tube? > > Rick Matsuda > > > > On Feb 1, 2023, at 12:21 PM, Scott Futrell <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Keep in mind that depending upon the IFC edition that is adopted > the IFC > used to have tables that did NOT match NFPA 13. So, if you > haven’t, look at > the IFC, too. > > > > Scott > > > > > *From:* Fpdcdesign <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Wednesday, February > 1, 2023 11:45 AM > *To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic > fire sprinklers < > [email protected]> > > *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume > > > > To > complicate matters further, this project is in a jurisdiction using the > > 2013 edition of 13, which only states 5% by weight or volume of Group A or > > B plastics. No difference between expanded or non-expanded. > > > > > Todd G Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > > Stonington, CT > > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > 860-554-7054 (fax) > > > 860-608-4559 (cell) > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum > mailing list: > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > [email protected] > > > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum > mailing list: > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > [email protected] > _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum > mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > >
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