Daniel,
Yes you are right and I misunderstood you when you talked about NG. The use in percent of fleet is largest in The Netherlands, it is very small in Sweden and I believe also in Switzerland. If I am not wrong, it is some use in Germany and it is comparable with Sweden and Switzerland. The NG fleets in those countries, if something great did not happened the last 5 years are mostly using fossil NG. Sweden had about the same usage the last 35 years. But it is an advantage in that it is some kind of existing distribution system in place, that easily could be upgraded in those countries. Maybe I am somewhat pessimistic about a rapid development first on fossil NG and then on the bio NG substitute. I saw that many started to realize that fossil NG maybe not was such a good idea and that it is depleting much faster than first thought. this mainly because of large buildup of equipment for heating and domestic use in many countries. The investments in this sector, might force the Big oil/gas to move to bio NG much faster. It could also be that this is a good fall back strategy for them in several of the largest developed countries. In the heating and electricity sector, it could very well be the case. I have had this thoughts for quite a while, but I do not really knew how to evaluate it. You might be right and if it is successful, they really pulled a good one. By the over investment in equipment, network of pipes in streets and deposits, they would control it as good as Big Electricity and Big Telco. I discarded this thoughts mainly because I could not see how we could get a diversified business environment. Maybe I am wrong, but if I am right, it would not be a "window of opportunity" in this sector. Hakan At 08:53 AM 12/13/2002 +0100, you wrote: >Dear Hakan, > >some comments: >I think I was talking about biofuels. >FT-fuels made of biomass is a synthetic fuel made >of biomass via gasification and the >Fischer-Tropsch-synthesis. But it is not ready for >use. >Biogas upgraded to Natural Gas is Natural Gas from > Biogas and it is 100% renewable (biodiesel >mostly is not 100% renewable!!!). Upgrading Biogas >to Natural Gas is ready to use and it is done and >uesd in Sweden and Switzerland. Biogas can use >existing consumer equipment and fit into existing > distribution systems. This could also be a business. >You talk about time spans of 20-40 years. That is >a long time, many things could be developed and >put into use in this time. > >I hope I could clear my points. Also I know that >this forum is very Biodiesel/SVO-sided ;-) > >Daniel > > >Hakan Falk schrieb: > > Dear Daniel, > > > > The subject was biofuel and I see them as renewable > > biological sources. I was driving Taxis on NG, 40 years > > ago in Sweden, but it is not a biofuel. The country that > > adopted NG the most is probably The Netherlands and > > I have often driven NG fueled cars there. They also have > > resources of natural gas. > > > > Keith initiated a very interesting discussion about > > synthetic fuels and the production of oil from coal. > > All of this are especially interesting for the coal rich > > Germany. It is however not biofuel. I do not think that > > Germany lacks agricultural area, it is a pseudo argument. > > You do not hear this in The Netherlands who have > > most people per square kilometer of the countries in > > the world. > > > > I also had an other restriction that excludes many > > alternative that are possible to develop. That is the > > "ready for use" condition. This means that it could > > be generally implemented in a time span of 20 to > > 40 years. Ethanol and Biodiesel/SVO can use > > existing consumer equipment and fit into existing > > distribution systems. > > > > If you start a business based on biofuel it must be > > possible to sell and use it now. If not, it is not a > > business. In fact, it was a very interesting exercise > > to take that perspective, because it becomes an > > acid test for the "ready for use" perspective. > > > > I have so much that I want to learn and so much > > that I want to communicate. I will continue and > > you will probably find the tings you missed in an > > other piece for our web site. > > > > Hakan > > > > > > At 04:22 PM 12/12/2002 +0100, you wrote: > > > >>Thanks Hakan for this very interesting view on > >>biofuels! > >>But may I give you some impression fo the german > >>point of view? > >>First of all you did not mention Methanol, > >>Fischer-Tropsch-Fuels (FT-fuels) and Biogas. > >>Ethanol is not discussed in Germany probably of > >>the lack of agricultural aera. > >>I will not talk about Methanol because I think it > >>will not have any chance. > >>So what about FT-fuels? This fuel is promoted in > >>Germany by federal institutions and by the > >>automobil industry - namely DC and VW. This > >>medium-term opportunity needs no chances in the > >>motors, it can be made from every organic material > >>but it needs bigger productions sites. On the > >>other hand it is very energy intensive in > >>production and the technology is still in > >>development. Here a big discussion is going on. > >>Biogas also now is in the discussion: cleaned and > >>enriched up to Natural Gas and bringing it to a > >>filling station or feeding it into a gas pipeline > >>may be an interesting thing. This is already done > >>in Sweden and Switzerland. There are cars driving > >>with NG, many new NG filling stations will be > >>built in nearest future, the liberalisation of the > >>EU Gas market is in progress and the technology is > >>available. The fraction of NG cars will increase. > >>Producing electricity from biogas in Germany is > >>economically very interesting because of a refund > >>assured by law. And biogas can be produced in very > >>small units. > >>Biodiesel does not have the best reputation cause > >>of the problems of monocultures. But it takes 0,55 > >>% of the fuel market in Germany. > >>So these are some points what is in the discussion > >>in Germany. But Germany is not the biggest country > >>although it has the most people in the Europe. A > >>unique solution can only be found within Europe, > >>here Ethanol might be leading. > >>Another thing is the opening of the EU towards the > >>east, with it big aeras of land and cheap labor. > >> > >>So, this is a little input - hastily written. > >> > >>Greetings > >> > >>Daniel > >> > >> > >>Hakan Falk schrieb: > >> > >>>Hi Keith and others, > >>> > >>>I am now close to publish, > >>>http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml > >>>I am still insecure about "Ethanol, big or small?" and will probably take > >>>this as a separate issue all together. Politics and perceptions are very > >>>important for a business, so I am not sure yet. Please look at it and give > >>>me your comments, both good and bad. > >>> > >>>Hakan > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>********************************************** > >>>If you want to take a look on a project > >>>that is very close to my heart, go to: > >>>http://energysavingnow.com/ > >>>http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card > >>>http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me > >>>http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site > >>>********************************************** > >>>"A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to > >>>how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn't the world > >>>being round that agitated people, but that the world > >>>wasn't flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has > >>>been sold to the masses over generations, the truth > >>>will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving > >>>lunatic." -- Dresden James > >>> > >>>"No flag is large enough to cover the shame of > >>>killing innocent people" -- Howard Zinn > >>> > >>>"Nobody grows old merely by living a number of years. > >>>We grow old by deserting our ideals. Years may > >>>wrinkle the skin, but to give up enthusiasm > >>>wrinkles the soul." - Unknown > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >>> > >>>Biofuels list archives: > >>>http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >>> > >>>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > >>>To unsubscribe, send an email to: > >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >> > >> > >>Mit freundlichen GrŸ§en > >> > >>Daniel West > >> > >>__________________________________________________________ > >> > >>Zentrum fŸr Sonnenenergie- und > >>Wasserstoff-Forschung (ZSW) > >>Regenerative Kraftstoffe und Verfahren (REG) > >>Center of Solar Energy and Hydrogen Research > >>Renewable Fuels and Processes > >> > >>Netzwerk "Regenerative Kraftstoffe" - ReFuelNet > >> > >>Dipl.-Ing. Daniel West > >> > >>Hessbruehlstra§e 21C, D-70565 Stuttgart > >> > >>Tel.: ++49-711-7870-249 / Fax: -200 > >>eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>http://www.zsw-bw.de > >>http://www.refuelnet.de > >>__________________________________________________________ > >> > >> > >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >> > >>Biofuels list archives: > >>http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >> > >>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > >>To unsubscribe, send an email to: > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Mit freundlichen GrŸ§en > >Daniel West > >__________________________________________________________ > >Zentrum fŸr Sonnenenergie- und >Wasserstoff-Forschung (ZSW) >Regenerative Kraftstoffe und Verfahren (REG) >Center of Solar Energy and Hydrogen Research >Renewable Fuels and Processes > >Netzwerk "Regenerative Kraftstoffe" - ReFuelNet > >Dipl.-Ing. Daniel West > >Hessbruehlstra§e 21C, D-70565 Stuttgart > >Tel.: ++49-711-7870-249 / Fax: -200 >eMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.zsw-bw.de >http://www.refuelnet.de >__________________________________________________________ > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
