Hi Mark Thankyou, very interesting (as ever).
Just to note that I don't think we regarded the NBB stranglehold on the EPA Tier II health effects data as the only barrier to small-scale biod. It wasn't just a barrier, it was a door slammed and bolted. Until that was resolved it just didn't seem worth trying anything else. So, now that the door is open, at least in theory, all the other barriers emerge, which may or may not be negotiable, but most of them probably are in one way or another, eventually. However, it's a bit ironic that, from what you're saying, the best place to start still seems to be in rural communities using local feedstocks, waste streams etc, and supplying fuel for off-road use - which is the same situation as before the NBB roadblack was resolved. I've written a lot here and at the Biofuel list and elsewhere about on-farm energy and biofuels production. Odd... Ed Beggs (if you don't mind Ed) and I have just been wondering off-list about this matter of farmers. Ed said: "...why so few farmers? You'd think they'd be all over the list....maybe they just lurk a bit and then quietly go build stuff we have not even thought of yet, for about $10, plus some broken cultivator bits, eh?" Maybe - hopefully... But I've encountered very few here, and in the biodiesel world generally, and the few I have encountered haven't been doing it very well. Often not that much better than the Illinois soy and wheat farmers crying over the lost subsidies for their wind farm, with apparently never a thought for biodiesel or ethanol power, or all the US chicken farmers (factory farmers) and their wails of anguish over heating bills every winter, despite all that eminently biogasable chicken litter they seem to have so much trouble disposing of (though of course a lot of chicken shit gets fed to cattle). Ho hum. Best Keith >(I'm crossposting this, read the rest of the thread below if you didnt get >this through the biofuel list... The thread started with a new person >asking why there aren't more small biodiesel producer businesses since it >seems so easy, and continued with Keith Addison pointing out that some of >the regulatory red tape is sudenly gone but there hasn't been much of a >test case of that yet) > > > One piece of the 'red tape' involved in small scale biodiesel production- >the NBB stranglehold on the EPA Tier II health effects testing results- >seems to have been cleared. Though a lot of people don't know that- I think >the Blue Sun Biodiesel folks I talked to a few weeks ago didn't know about >that (can't remember if it was the Blue Sun rep or another large-scale >biodiesel advocacy guy who was with the Blue Sun guy, sorry if I get this >wrong guys). Seems to me that, like with many victories where big business >loses a legal battle, the NBB and whomever didn't make a very loud stink >about their loss, and biodiesel people who weren't on these lists don't >seem to be very aware of that. > > >But there's still plenty more red tape and obstacles, of the local and >state-level and zoning and regulations variety. I'm watching a few people >go through varying levels of interaction with the government and blundering >in red tape- one for a business and one for a bulk buying coop, in two >different cities, and our coop is no doubt going to go through the same thing. > >The small producer business is finding that Oakland would require a site to >be zoned 'heavy industrial' - a huge obstacle to a small business trying to >break into biodiesel production here. There is far more more warehouse and >industrial real estate in this city (and most of them I imagine) that is >zoned light industrial, than heavy industrial. There is sometimes little >difference between the types of facilities, and we all of course feel that >a small producer would do fine in a light industrial warehouse, and have >little impact on the immediate environment or neighborhood. Yet they're yet >to convince the city otherwise of course- (changes to zoning regulations >are a hellish process if you're not a real estate developer or otherwise >well connected politically). Other would-be small producers are finding >insurance to be unavailable or prohibitive. This pretty much kills a >business like this, or makes it impossible to find certain kinds of >investment or funding, and nonprofit status doesn't help in the cases I >know about. > >Keith mentioned 'various kinds of coops' below. The bulk buying coop I;ve >got in mind (not us in Berkeley, a coop in another city) wants to purchase >some bulk biodiesel and put it into a tank to dispense to members. They are >trying to go about all of this as legitimately as possible (some coops are >not organized this way, and personally I think the most practical thing at >this point in time is to do city-based coop work 'under the radar' and on a >very, very small scale) > >anyway they got a donated small aboveground diesel storage tank like that >used on farms and by businesses that use generators, and cleaned out the >sludge using some biodiesel. One member called the fire department to find >out where to take the wastes (in the US we have local household hazardous >wastes disposal facilities that accept stuff like this). The fire >department immediately 'freaked out' and wanted to know where the tank was >and how it was set up (the member didn't tell them the exact location). The >upshot of their conversation is that for them to do this, biodiesel or not, >they would have to buy an expensive doublewalled tank (too bad "they" >didn't have those regulations in effect for the oil tanker that crashed off >of Spain this winter!), with a bunch of other safety devices on it- and >they wouldn't be able to do it in city limits without spending a huge pile >of money, if at all (sorry I unfortunately don't remember all the details >beyond the 'containment' and the 'doublewalled tank' part. I hope I got >that one right). The irony is that the city they're in is surrounded by an >agricultural county- and if they were just out on someone's farm right >outside town, that kind of very common and safe diesel tank would have been >just fine the way that they'd set it up. But that defeats the purpose of >having a coop centrally located where members can come work on it easily >and don't necessarily have to drive to get there to do their volunteer >work, among other issues (like them perhaps not having a member with a farm >nearby). So with this and other problems they're finding that they may not >even be able to do the MOST basic part of a coop legitimately- buying some >fuel in bulk and dispensing it to each other (taxes are all paid in this >scenario, and everyone involved wants to 'play by the rules' and do this >legitimately). the problems facing a city-based coop trying to actually >MAKE fuel for themselves 'above ground'- ie in full knowledge of local >authorities- are insurmountable in my opinion. No one's gonna insure >amateurs playing with flammable chemicals, for instance. It seems to me >that the obstacles facing small producers in a city are going to be >similarly expensive and painful. It also seems that if you leave city >limits it becomes easier. I would be interested in hearing anecdotes from >others- small producers, coops, whatever- who have successfully or >unsuccessfully interacted with the authorities. It seems to me that we >focused so much on the NBB-controlled process for access to the EPA Tier II >health effects data as an obstacle that we haven't talked much about the >local issues. > >We talk a lot about the great potential of biodiesel for revolutionizing >and decentralizing energy production. It's been really interesting to me to >see it play out in real life over the past year- lots of people trying to >start coops, few of them are any kind of blazing success- and with the EPA >regs lifted, many people starting to contemplate becoming small >producers. What 'decentralized energy production' looks like is anyone;s >guess- there are so many different ways to organize it and so few recent >models (you can't look at past solar stuff for this one, nor to farm wastes >ethanol- WVO biodiesel is unique in that the energy already comes to you in >the decentralized form of waste). Given also that September 11th has >galvanized many people into making the connection between power, oil, and >American foreign policy, there is also a huge amount of idealism and a lot >of desire (at least here) to make 'decentralized energy production' work >out. I'm seeing lots of that idealism dashed somewhat by the realities such >as those anecdotes above, realities of insurance, etc. Again, like Keith in >the post below, I'm interested in hearing more of the stories of people in >other areas who have had successful or unsuccessful interactions with the >regulations surrounding all of this. > >mark > > >At 03:03 AM 2/8/2003 +0900, you wrote: > > >commercially, the road is fraught with red tape and government >interference. > > >This is why we make it ourselves, for ourselves, and teach >others to do the > > >same. > > >Steve Spence > > > >It seems as lot of the red tape and pure obstruction to small-scale > >operators may have been cleared away, largely as a result of work > >done by various list members here and at Biofuels-Biz. Lots of info > >in the archives about all this - really lots. Check out "EPA hassle" > >in both archives. However, it still needed a test case, and I haven't > >heard of one. > > > >Bill Clark, if you're listening, any news for us on this? Or anyone else? > > > >There are also other options - various kinds of coops, fuel for > >off-road use, etc. Actually, from what I hear and enquiries I get, > >there seems to be a large number of people at various stages of > >starting biodiesel and biofuels operations in the US (since you're > >talking about the US), and also elsewhere, in Britain, India, > >Thailand... > > > >Let's have some news about what's going on out there, you good folks > >who're doing it. Tell us your plans, progress, problems and > >constraints, if you can, without giving too much away. It would be > >good to try to get some sort of view of how it's all developing at > >that level. > > > >Best wishes > > > >Keith > > > > > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > ><http://www.green-trust.org>http://www.green-trust.org > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > > >Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 2:57 AM > > >Subject: [biofuel] so i got one more ? > > > > > > > > > > and i read many archives i just searched for the wrong phrases i > > > > guess, and way the question is, how come people aren't opening > > > > biodiesel fuel operations, like for home heating, or cars even?, it > > > > seems being so cheap and easy it would have caught on a lot faster?, > > > > maybe you guys can explain this to me Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
