Hello Mike

I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology 
approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary 
adjunct to Schumacher's "Small is beautiful - economics as if people 
mattered".

An introduction:
http://journeytoforever.org/at.html
Appropriate technology

Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as 
appropriate in rich countries.

Best

Keith


>Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from "neighborhood crank to having
>a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD," are the neighbors
>changing?  If so, how?  One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith
>is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD
>plant, as well as have access to feedstock.  It seems to me, since you are
>already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new
>neighborhood "gas pump."  Don't you think???  Of course, once you, or
>someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your
>individual production into the need for an "industrial-scale process."  In
>fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD
>or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must
>necessarily adopt "industrial-scale" processes.  Don't you think??
>Presently, I do.  Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about
>any size community that has developed/is developing "industrial-scale
>processes (that) fit rational biofuels production," to use Keith's terms.
>Another Mike
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
>Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
>
>
> > FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except
> > for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for
> > cooking and showers.  I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD
> > generator running and use electric.  I heat with wood.
> >
> > I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of
> > visitors and questions about BD
> >
> > M&K DuPree wrote:
> >
> >>Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic
> >>ethanol generally.  This whole area is very new to me.  Somehow I have
> >>been
> >>blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general
> >>"world view" have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon
> >>oil as an energy source.  All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control
> >>my
> >>life really is.  And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned
> >>frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over
> >>there???  Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at
> >>bay,
> >>but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt
> >>urgency to research and find alternative energy sources.  This research
> >>has
> >>led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world
> >>view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5
> >>billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked.
> >>Just
> >>another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come
> >>back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of
> >>limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes
> >>into
> >>account the full extent of my actions).  This side of the edge, however,
> >>isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I
> >>am
> >>going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might
> >>truly
> >>possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin
> >>to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by
> >>the
> >>local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe
> >>back over the edge into dreamland again).  Is this clear...or am I coming
> >>off as the probable lunatic I might really be???
> >>     Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments.  I'm still reading
> >>through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe
> >>my
> >>questions will be answered along the way.  Nonetheless, I want to ask them
> >>here: 1) in regards to "how well industrial-scale processes fit rational
> >>biofuels production," would you please explain in more detail? Also,
> >>perhaps
> >>lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational
> >>biofuels
> >>production?  My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I
> >>have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not
> >>something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various
> >>reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of
> >>distribution.  Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited
> >>resources.
> >>I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this
> >>appearance.
> >>Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this
> >>point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you
> >>please explain further how "gobbling up crop wastes" is done "at the
> >>expense
> >>of soil fertility maintenance?"  Please understand, I am in NO WAY trying
> >>to
> >>be argumentative.  I really am profoundly concerned about our world
> >>situation today and how I can be on the helpful side of it all (knapsack
> >>and
> >>all???).  I don't have that much time left on the planet, and I'd like to
> >>go
> >>down swinging.  Thanks.  Mike
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> >>Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:17 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hi Mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Hi...I'd like to hear the list's opinion about the process developed
> >>>>by Iogen to produce "cellulosic ethanol."  Goldman Sachs announced
> >>>>yesterday (May 1) an investment of $30million Canadian in the
> >>>>company.  Royal Dutch/Shell, Petro-Canada, and the Canadian Gov't
> >>>>have also all partnered with or are supporting Iogen.
> >>>>    The first article below, by Sam Jaffe, an editor with The
> >>>>Scientist magazine, discusses cellulosic ethanol as well as a fuel
> >>>>cell developed by Lanny Scmidt.  The second link is to the Iogen
> >>>>website itself.  Thanks.  Mike
> >>>>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.jaffe.html
> >>>>http://www.iogen.ca/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Here's some previous discussion:
> >>>
> >>>http://snipurl.com/pxs2
> >>>biofuel
> >>>Search results for 'iogen'
> >>>94 matches
> >>>
> >>>Ethanol from cellulose
> >>>http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose
> >>>
> >>>Maybe it'll get off the ground now, it's been around for years and
> >>>nothing happens. Like all the other ethanol-from-cellulose projects.
> >>>
> >>>What bothers me about it, other than how well industrial-scale
> >>>processes fit rational biofuels production anyway, is that cellulose
> >>>is widely regarded as "waste", but the soil that produced it might
> >>>not think so. There's often plenty of cellulose about that isn't
> >>>utilised and could/should be harvested, but if Iogen et al start
> >>>gobbling up crop wastes at the expense of soil fertility maintenance
> >>>then clean, green and sustainable biofuels won't be the result.
> >>>
> >>>Best
> >>>
> >>>Keith


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