I don't think conventional western medicine has all the answers, anymore than I think the "alternatives" do.
Like Bob, I like to see unbiased evidence of efficacy before putting my faith into things that will affect my health directly. I am very suspicious of the western medical-industrial complex. Clearly, we need to fix things, the system is breaking at a lot of levels. We prescribe too many antibiotics. We also get too many via our food produced by the agrifood industry. They even show up in quantity in our water systems. We don't focus enough on wellness and prevention, and too much on disease treatment. About a decade ago, I was having health problems that stymied my doctor and a wealth of specialists. In an attempt to deal with one of the symptoms, I visited a chiropractor for the first time. He took my history, and quizzed me on symptoms. After all that, he took an x-ray on my spine with an antique machine. I worried about the radiation exposure. On my second visit, he told me the problem was in my sixth or seventh cervical vertebra. On my next visit, I mentioned this to my doctor. Predictably, she scoffed. However, this time she sent me to a neurologist (if you can't fix 'em, refer 'em). He ordered an MRI. That took several months on a waiting list. During that period the chiropractor kept me mobile, although I resorted to using canes for stability. I finally got the MRI appointment. I could no longer stand with my eyes closed without the canes. I was becoming incontinent. The MRI revealed I had a tumour inside my spine, at the C7 vertebra. As it was growing, it was compressing the nerve bundle, shutting down my nervous system below C7. I saw the neuro-surgeon for the first time more than a year after the chiropractor's diagnosis. During this period, I became diabetic. My conventional doctors say there is no connection, and I would be on insulin within four years. The chiropractor says there absolutely is a connection - the automomic system connection to the pancreas is below C7. A decade later, I am still insulin-independent, though my sugars are not yet back in the normal range without medication. So, I may not trust big pharma, but so far they are still part of my daily life. I have tried some alternatives, but so far, exercise and prescription meds have produced the best results. Yes, this story is anecdotal. However, when we're talking about a schwanoma tumour in men, this is a less than one in a million occurrence, so conducting repeatable double blind trials may be a bit problematic. But I think it is indicative of why so many of us feel there is something to alternative medicine, and our distrust of conventional western medicine. I think both approaches have merits, and having them in an adversarial embrace does not address the fundamental issue of improving our health. There is good to be had from both approaches. There are charlatans residing in both camps. If there is an "answer", it is to extract the best from both, and shed the baggage that each carries. Darryl McMahon Keith Addison wrote: > The main edifice of "conventional" allopathic (cure-the-symptom) > so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the > hospitals. > > Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering > from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical > treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes - > JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5). Nonetheless a fairly august medical > practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: "Of COURSE > we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds!" LOL! > > At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary > health care group working on development projects in 3rd World > countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the > absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors > said, "Of course there is," and the discussion continued as if I > hadn't said anything. > > The "Western" doctor who shouted at me didn't know what I was talking > about when I told him that. > > What's the difference? The glaring difference is that there's no > market in 3rd World people who earn less than $2 a day, it's just not > worth all the spin and corruption. There's no money in health anyway, > maintaining disease is much more profitable, whether you're Big > Pharma or a GP. Twenty-five years ago after I first started working > with organic growing, a young doctor who was working with me got the > idea that eating properly grown food might have something to do with > it. He was working in a fishing community, quite poor people, and got > very enthusiastic about the success he was having with this approach > (nothing new - see, eg, The Medical Testament > <http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#medtest>). But later > he complained that healthy patients didn't visit the doctor very > often. Eventually he moved back to the city and became a surgeon. > > Every health education council I've talked to has stressed that > health maintenance is primarily the patient's responsibility. But the > patients are seduced by the quick "cure" that makes the symptom go > away, and who needs more responsibility anyway? That's what doctors > are for. > > Especially in the industrialised countries, millions of people now > suffer from systemic candida albicans yeast infections, and not many > of them can get effective medical treatment for it. They're quite > likely to be referred to a psychiatrist instead because when they > report the large variety of symptoms candida produces it's assumed to > be psychosomatic. Most of the medical profession is in denial about > candida because it's brought on by overuse of antibiotics and > steroids. So a lot of people just die, with whatever symptom "did it" > on the death certificate. > > Again to name just one, a study published in the BMJ a while back > reported that back pain was the fastest-growing and one of the > biggest medical problems in Britain at the time, and that > "conventional" medicine had a very poor track record in treating it. > The authors reported that several alternative therapies achieved much > better results. They called for the alternative treatments to be made > available via Britain's National Health scheme. That proposal didn't > get very far. > > Some time before that the US DoA reported finding a potent > anti-cancer drug in ordinary cabbages. But the report stated that the > drug was unlikely to become available as it wasn't worth > commercialising it because cabbages were too common. These days I > suppose we'd suddenly find that cabbages had become the exclusive > property of Pfizer or Bayer. > > There's something rollickingly insane about what happens to people > who eat the "food" approved by the Food and Drugs Administration, and > then they get the approved "healthcare" too (eg the "Seven Deadly > Drugs" approved by the FDA). It's become a very Orwellian word, > healthcare has. Things are indeed much as D. describes them, sad to > say. > > Best > > Keith > > > > >>Bob, >> Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is >>convicted >>of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. I am >>more forgiving, >>having realized my own numerous faults. >> There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be >>safe >>and effective. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can >>see many studies >>there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big >>Pharma >>takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and >>then derives a >>drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used >>as medicine for >>hundreds of years. You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by >>this approach. >> You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech >>approach >>to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot and, imo, that's a >>fundamental error. >>Not only that, but they insist that only their way is "science" and we that >>disagree are >>goofy. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs, >>vitamins, and supplements >>on the shelves in today's health food store. That is the aim of Codex >>Alimentarius. Of >>course, it is to be done to "protect" the citizens of America, Australia, >>England, Germany, >>etc. It will be done with no public input and to "harmonize" our trade with >>all of our >>trade partners. So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent >>herbs, supplements, >>vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily >>allowance) >>levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing. >> One example of alt medicine in action: >>http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html >>Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in >>advanced stages >>of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes by a >>bully FDA. >>Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked, >>it seems >>that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business and there >>little incentive >>to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a >>threat but he held >>his ground. My hat is off to him. >> The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has >>done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The >>monographs are available in book form. >>Peace, D. Mindock >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia >>WasTestimonials as Evidence) >> >> >> >>> >>>D. Mindock wrote: >>> >>>>I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. >>> >>>no, the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he >>>only sells books about health care products. >>> >>> >>>I got his >>> >>>>last two books. >>>>They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says. >>> >>> >>>keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud. He stole peoples money. >>> what makes you think he's telling the truth now? did you read any of >>>the comments at ripoffreport.com ? he is a scam artist >>> >>> I >>> >>>>have seen too many people, friends >>>>and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with >>>>drugs, and as >>>>long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them >>>>exclusively. >>> >>> >>>a commendable notion, but where do you get reliable information on >>>efficacy? from a con artist? >>> >>> >>> >>>>It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more >>>>successful >>>>they are, the more they're stymied >>>>in their work by the FDA. >>> >>>how do you measure success? The reason they are under attack as you call >>>it not because of success, but because they make unsubstantiated claims. >>> For example mercola >>> >>>---------------------------------- >>>Mercola gets second warning letter. >>> >>>The FDA has ordered Joseph Mercola, DO and his Optimal Wellness Center >>>to stop making illegal claims for four products. The order was based on >>>product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on >>>claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. The objectionable >>>claims include: >>> >>>**Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to "help to virtually >>>eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future." >>> >>>**Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of >>>heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases. >>> >>>**Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating >>>certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease. >>> >>>**Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed >>>to be "a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other >>>pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease." >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>This is one of the primary functions of the >>> >>>>AMA. It has no enforcement powers so it calls on the FDA. It is called >>>>"protecting thy turf". Alt medicine >>>>is growing by leaps and bounds and is the wave of the future, if, a big >>>>if, >>>>it can survive the onslaught from >>>> the FDA, AMA, and Codex Alimentarius. >>> >>>and another big if is can it be proven to really do anything. >>> >>> >>>>Big Pharma is the creator/backer of the Codex and I have no doubt that >>>>many >>>>Repugs and a few >>>>key Dems are being primed to pass legislation to make it a done deal in >>>>the >>>>U$ of A. >>>>Peace, D. Mindock >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>>>Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:40 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia >>>>WasTestimonials as Evidence) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due >>>>>to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, >>>>>you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. >>>>>Well, Trudeau went below that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever >>>>>seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of >>>>>acceptability very, very low. Well, Trudeau went below that. >>>>> >>>>>here is the ftc statement >>>>> >>>>>http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a >>>>>federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been >>>>>treated by the man. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >>http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit >>2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0 >> >>>>>you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Terry Dyck wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Hi Bob, >>>>>> >>>>>>The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by >>>>>>Kevin >>>>>>Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial >>>>>>world. >>>>>>Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of >>>>>>corrupt >>>>>>work to please the share holders of his company. >>>>> >>>>>then he is corrupt to do it. and just what company was that? I don't >>>>>mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question >>>>>whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> He was expected to do this >>>>> >>>>>>corrupt work in order to keep his job. He also explains that the FDA >>>>>>quite >>>>>>often picks on small natural food companies and has there products >>>>>>banned >>>>>>for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom >>>>>>line >>>>>>of >>>>>>Drug companies profits. >>>>> >>>>>got a verifiable example? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can >>>>>>influence information. Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid >>>>>>scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, >>>>>>etc. >>>>> >>>>>now here we agree. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia >>>>>>>WasTestimonials as Evidence) >>>>>>>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily. Here is >>>>>>>what >>>>>>>I should have sent: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Howdy Terry, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Terry Dyck wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>>and D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Mindock in stating that I to believe in science. There is good >>>>>>>>science >>>>>>> >>>>>>>and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>bad science. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>bad science has little meaning in my mind. One can pursue >>>>>>>information >>>>>>>via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. >>>>>>>There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When it comes to the western world and health money seems to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much >>>>>>> >>>>>>>published >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical >>>>>>>>corportations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an >>>>>>>endless >>>>>>>array of hucksters? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>not on this list, huh. But we do see mercola et al. I really don't >>>>>>>see >>>>>>>much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is not >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>good for human health. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Terry Dyck >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>>>>>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia >>>>>>>>>WasTestimonials as Evidence) >>>>>>>>>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who >>>>>>> >>>>>>>can be >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>bought to produce desired >>>>>>>>>outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am >>>>>>>>>trained >>>>>>> >>>>>>>to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>run computer >>>>>>>>>models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate >>>>>>> >>>>>>>more >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>closely to >>>>>>>>>reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard. >>>>>>>>>Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour >>>>>>> >>>>>>>knowledge >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>into hung-over >>>>>>>>>college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, >>>>>>>>>is >>>>>>> >>>>>>>awe >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>inspiring at times. >>>>>>>>>Peace, D. Mindock >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Was >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Testimonials as Evidence) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Hi Kurt; >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Pardon my snipping style but..... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Kurt Nolte wrote: >>>>>>>>>>snip >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, >>>>>>>>>>>Terry >>>>>>>>>>>Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my >>>>>>> >>>>>>>head. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming >>>>>>>>>>>that >>>>>>>>>>>herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly >>>>>>>>>>>efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals >>>>>>>>>>>produced >>>>>>> >>>>>>>by >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>synthetic processes just don't hack it. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to >>>>>>>>>>some >>>>>>>>>>degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, >>>>>>>>>>or >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you >>>>>>> >>>>>>>are >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>saying about the others. I am very scientifically inclined, I run >>>>>>>>>>a >>>>>>>>>>university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of >>>>>>>>>>the >>>>>>>>>>idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the >>>>>>>>>>answers. I still have great respect for science and believe that >>>>>>>>>>one >>>>>>>>>>day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain. All I >>>>>>>>>>am >>>>>>>>>>suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain >>>>>>>>>>something >>>>>>>>>>at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be >>>>>>>>>>rejected. I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in >>>>>>>>>>dissagreement. I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob >>>>>>> >>>>>>>closed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>minded. Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Joe > > -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
