This all makes sense, but the question is: what does crossing=traffic_lights mean given these contexts? There are at least 3 types of lights and I've seen all of them referred to as "traffic lights", even on UK government websites:
- Pedestrian signals, i.e. "walk/do not walk" lights of any kind meant to indicate that pedestrians should cross. - The traffic lights for street traffic that are specifically associated with a pedestrian crossing, as in the pelican example - the traffic light pole also has all of these things: a pedestrian signal, a light for street traffic (stop/go/etc), and there is generally an APS to request a crossing signal. - The traffic lights for street traffic that are not explicitly associated with a particular crossing. The crossing is still protected by those lights, there might even be an APS, but the traffic light is located at highway=traffic_signals, i.e. the center of a street intersection. The OSM wiki describes crossing=traffic_signals as, "Position this tag where the crossing-traffic (pedestrian, bicycles) have their own traffic lights." I still have no idea which of these things that is meant to apply to. I wouldn't personally consider a intersection-centered traffic light to be pedestirans' "own" traffic lights, but they have roughly the same function and impact on pedestrian needs as a pelican crossing, in terms of traffic. I've been told a few times, on this mailing list, that it does not apply to pedestrian signals, but that's hard to reconcile with the fact that pedestrian signals are frequently referred to as "traffic lights" in many official government documents and guides and trying to understand what in the world "their own traffic lights" means. Personally, I think this suggests a need for a separate value or at least tagging strategy to separate at least these two cases: signals directed at pedestrians vs. signals directed at street traffic. If there is value in knowing whether traffic signals are attached to the crossing in some way, I wouldn't be against that, either. On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 4:45 AM Paul Allen <pla16...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, 9 May 2019 at 23:26, Nick Bolten <nbol...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Yes, but a traffic light for whom? I've seen mappers who assume it means >> "walk"/"do not walk" lights like this: >> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Do_Not_Walk_sign,_Great_Neck,_New_York.jpg. >> I've seen mappers who assume it means there is a sign *just* to warn >> traffic about pedestrians, as can be found in the UK. I've seen mappers who >> assume it means there is a nearby traffic light that means cars sometimes >> stop at this location, but it doesn't say anything about having a >> "walk"/"do not walk" sign. >> > > Yes, there are warning lights in the UK. Zebra crossings on public roads > have a flashing yellow > globe on a pole (Belisha Beacon) to highlight that there is a crossing. > But nobody refers to it as > a traffic light. Some crossings by schools have flashing yellow lights > (in a similar sort of style > to US railroad crossing lights) but they're not traffic lights either. > Traffic lights control the flow > of traffic by telling drives when they must stop and when they can go, > they're not warnings that > there is a crossing. > > We have crossings with lights that control both pedestrians and traffic, > the Pelican (PEdestrian > Light CONtrolled) crossing. As far as motorists are concerned it looks > like any other set of > traffic lights except there's an additional flashing amber phase telling > cars they can go if there > are no pedestrians on the crossing. As far as pedestrians are concerned > it looks like traffic > lights for motor vehicles but also has lights for the pedestrians (and a > button, which may or > may not do anything) for the pedestrian to let the lights know somebody is > waiting to cross). > > I don't recall seeing (in the UK, in other countries it might be > different) lights that control > pedestrians but NOT traffic. It doesn't seem to be a sensible idea. A > signal that tells pedestrians > it's now OK to cross without telling motorists they should have stopped > seems like a recipe > for disaster. > > To summarize: in the UK there are traffic lights that control motor > vehicles and there are traffic lights > that control both motor vehicles and pedestrians; warning lights are not > traffic lights. > -- > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >
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