Dear Peter and all others, I gained the impression you do not find consent just because you are using different definitions for the same thing: SAC T4-T6. 🙈
Peter wrote Thu Sep 15 2022 17:30:25 GMT+0200 Peter
Which combination(s) of highway values, sac scale values and hazard values would exclusively represent a scramble
Janko
Any of the three combinations: highway=path + sac_scale=alpine_hiking highway=path + sac_scale=demanding_alpine_hiking highway=path + sac_scale=difficult_alpine_hiking
Peter
So, a selection of sac_scale values may or may not include scramble sections, beside other posible obstacles/hazards/challenges. If you specifically want to know where the scramble sections are, the sac_scale doesn't tell you, correct?
Yes and no 🤪 Janko's and Yves' answer that T4-T6 _require_ hands is correct when using the _German_ definition https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:sac_scale In contrast, the _English_ definition https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sac_scale did tell until now that hands are optional for T4+T5 and only mandatory for T6 – so it supported Peter's view – which was not consistent with the original definition of SAC telling "you’ll need to use your hands" already for T4, see https://www.sac-cas.ch/fileadmin/Ausbildung_und_Wissen/Sicher_unterwegs/Sicher_unterwegs_Wandern/2020_Berg_Alpinwanderskala_EN.pdf I just updated the EN wiki page to match with SAC's definition. To extend the answer on Peters original question: Based on SAC's definition, each path of grade SAC T4 and above is a scramble, because definition of T4-T6 is that at some point, one needs the hands to go further. Climbing, by all definitions I saw, needs hands. https://theuiaa.org/mountaineering/uiaa-grades-for-rock-climbing/ even mentions the word "scramble". So if someone does not want to use hands, exclude any object tagged as sport=climbing – and please note that UIAA grade I and II is not only suitable for cliffs but also a hiking path of SAC T5 or T6, so it is relevant on Peter's question. For https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:hazard it's a little less clear, as there are not yet many agreed values for the kind of physical objects we are talking about. Probably relevant values found via taginfo are hazard=falling and =steep and =slip_danger and =steep_slope. Considering what surprisingly high steps specialized off-road vehicles can manage, the two worst values of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness will likely require pedestrians to use hands. Yves did trow in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trail_visibility at Thu Sep 15 2022 17:06:25 GMT+0200. I am not creative enough to deduct from visibility whether hands need to be used, but I still list it as others might have an idea 🙂 While above keys/values enforce use of hands and thus answer your question, these are not best to satisfy your expressed interest: To avoid scramble sections. Why not? 1) Some ways might simply not yet carry above mentioned tagging but wait for someone adding it. 2) There may exist some more keys/values not yet mentioned here. To more reliably avoid scrambles, you need to approach from the other side: Choose ways tagged as SAC T2 and T1 because they must not be a scramble, by their definition, and the relevant information is certainly existing in OSM DB. Only remaining bigger risk is that map and territory are not matching. Best regards, Georg _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
