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On 2013-10-01 13:11, Ben Laenen wrote :
I agree with you that, in contrast with what OSM seems to want to do (on the wiki and on the tagging list), we cannot map everything down to the slightest detail. And on the other hand, it is not mandatory do better than the many mistakes that exist in the law and administration.On Monday 30 September 2013 23:58:36 André Pirard wrote:Désolé, j'ai mal exprimé ma pensée, j'interprétais vos raisonnements. Mais si, si vous voulez laisser passer les vélos, il faut ajouter bicycle=yes Les tags OSM respectent les règles OSM et pas le code de la route belge. On ne s'y retrouverait pas si l'interprétation d'OSM suivait les règles particulières de chaque pays.Well, this discussion has been held a lot of times in the past. It's completely impossible to mold the entire world into a set of tag rules without exceptions in any country at all. It already starts with the definition of each different category of vehicle, so we couldn't even make a tag set which is valid for the entire world if we were to tag every vehicle type explicitely (think roads that have motorcar=yes, goods=yes, bicycle=yes, motorcycle=yes, foot=yes, horse=yes etc). We in Belgium have two types of mopeds, in other countries they have mofa and moped, other countries have a single type of moped, and then the rules start to change what it means exactly if you tag a road with moped=no. But we should not pretend to map traffic rules and do it plain wrong. If we tag bicycle=yes where it should be =no, the marvelous OSM routing programs will send bicycles there. In that case, we'd better tag nothing at all. Click here to open this map. You see the route. Select Goods, recalculate. No change. Now select Heavy Goods, recalculate. See? It understood the hgv-only restriction. That program is even laughing at the road administration because the route is perfectly respectful of the signs but I know that what they want is preventing the HGVs to go down this road and through Esneux. Now, try doing this with Google Maps, try with ViaMichelin, anything else to try? Well, guys, I'm proud of working for OSM when I see such results and you can understand that I'm always upset when I see yournavigation or Osmand on my phone making a routing mistake. In consequence, if we do not find something we need in the OSM tags, we should request it. I have an idea for country specific rules and other matters. I hope to be able to send a message to the tagging list soon.So yes, we have to have country defined rules about access tags. And one of them is that access=destination will always allow pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders in Belgium. Another one for example is that a motorroad=yes will disallow pedestrians, cyclists, mopeds, horse riders and other animal drivers without having to add all these explicitely. The matter about C3 is as follows. The present definition was this:
Isn't it strange to fully forbid access to "vehicle" and to partially forbid access to "everything", making a difference with pedestrians when the only difference is a Belgian exception regarding horses and bicycles? Let us analyze the terms of the law. 9.2. Signal C3. Accès interdit, dans les deux sens, à tout conducteur. 2.13. Le terme "conducteur" désigne toute personne qui assure la direction d'un véhicule ou qui guide ou garde des animaux de trait, de charge, de monture ou des bestiaux.Hence, C3 applies to "vehicle" plus "horse" (rather than everything minus foot and ski) vehicle=no horse=no 2.47. Les termes "excepté circulation locale" ou "desserte locale" désignent une voie publique qui n'est accessible qu'aux véhicules des riverains de cette rue et des personnes se rendant ou venant de chez l'un d'eux y compris les véhicules de livraison; y sont aussi admis sans exceptions les véhicules des services d'entretien et de surveillance, lorsque la nature de leur mission le justifie, les véhicules prioritaires visés à l'article 37 et les cyclistes et les cavaliers. [my underline]Hence, C3 = "destination" applies to ("vehicle" plus "horse") minus ("bicycle" plus "horse") vehicle=destination delivery=yes emergency=yes bicycle=yes In consequence, I have modified our wiki as follows.
Let me know any comment. Now we have to ask:
I once wrote a message on the tagging list about such a library idea. Not a single reply.I know it's not an elegant solution, and that it does put a big burden on all data users to interpret what access tags mean in every country, but I always had this "dream" already quite some time ago that one day some kind of a library would be built that would take the tags on a road, and then you can ask if a certain vehicle is allowed or not for that given country. A place where all these local country rules would be defined. But I guess that's beyond this discussion :-) I now have a new idea that makes much sense. Wait a bit (I hope). Cheers,
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