Am 18.10.2012 23:34, schrieb Jérome Armau:
Keep in mind that we're trying to make the openstreetmap project
accessible to a larger share of the population. In every single
country, that means appealing to a non-computer-geek crowd. For
example, the usage of "-Djosm.home=<dir>" is dark magic to most
people. Even though it's acceptable to most users of this list who are
well used to the inner workings of their computer system, it's just
plain wrong to advise any non-power-user to do this.
I disagree that it's about non-power users here.
As far as I understood we speak about a relatively big group of mappers
from France doing these imports.
I understood that it's more or less impossible for the French community
to speak English, be it to understand received messages written in
English or documenting the import in a language that would be readable
for the majority of the worldwide community (I hope, that's still true,
but it was said in any previous email that the cadastre stuff lacks
documentation in English in the wiki).
[General note: you in the following refers to the french cadastre
importers group, not to you, Jérome alone or personally]
Within that relatively large group of importing mappers I guess there is
one or a small subgroup of power-users.
Why should that be impossible to work out a best practice for that
imports, e.g. to suggest the separate account and the Djosm.home
parametrization for JOSM for easy switching?
A .bat and .sh script doing that would be easily set up, I think. I even
guess (untested) it would be possible to create a script where all josm
data is syncronized by symlinks or something like that except of the
user settings to apply on upload.
Obviously you are able to explain how to use the data sets as a source,
but it should not be possible to add a small script to use for starting
JOSM when importing? or other stuff?
You managed to create a dedicated JOSM plugin for the cadastre import
[1], that even contains a josm command line to use because of the memory
limit of the JVM, but it should be impossible to add a separat parameter
to that?
Someone of you created a dedicated interface [2] for the cadastre import
stuff, but a simple tool to enable every mapper to conform to the import
rules should be impossible?
I agree that issues like mails written in English aren't the best thing
the DWG could have done to contact about these issues - but as far as I
know there's no French member in the volunteer group of the DWG who
want's to help here, and if you complain, that it's not allowed to
require French mappers to know English enough to read messages received,
why do you require non-french mappers to know how to write (usually
that's more difficult) mails in French for the case that particular
mapper is not able to read English (keep in mind: still a lot of wiki
pages are not translated to French, same as for most other languages).
At least I think that every mapper on the world should be aware that
it's an international project; and if I get a message in an
international project I don't understand and which is not obviously spam
(I don't know stats about that, but personally I don't see a spam
problem in osm messaging), I ask back, telling the sender that I'm not
able to understand it due to language problems, yes, if not possible
otherwise, I do that in my own language.
If I as a German mapper, who's not able to read or write (or speak)
French and I would get a message from someone from France in French, I
would try to translate it, ask someone to translate it for me and/or
respond with a short note that I'm not able to read that message and
politely ask for the message in German or English. Everything I read in
the mails about cadastre is that it's not acceptable to get a Message in
English, and therefore everything is the DWGs fault (more or less).
French cadastre import as I see it as a non-french speaking mapper seems
to be some kind of not French local chapter stuff, but isolated French
OSM community: own rules (to some extend), no documentation for
foreigners, less motivation to communicate to foreigners when contacted
by them.
Personally and as I understand many messages of this thread I think most
issues could be solved, but that needs communication and collaboration;
and I didn't read ANY question for help (but at least one offer).
Instead rules that seem not to be objected by many others are constantly
opposed as not applying for obscure reasons or not acceptable for
reasons like the mandate of DWG or things like that.
Why?
regards
Peter
[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:JOSM/Fr:Plugin/Cadastre-fr
[2] http://cadastre.openstreetmap.fr/
In non-English-speaking countries, that also means that the average
contributor:
- does not have a very good command of English (beyond the tagging
standards)
- does not know about services such as Google translate
I'm confident a significant portion of French, German, Italian and
Spanish contributors are in this case. These people are not
represented on this mailing list, but need to be taken into account in
these decisions.
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Cartinus <carti...@xs4all.nl
<mailto:carti...@xs4all.nl>> wrote:
On 10/18/2012 09:44 PM, Christian Rogel wrote:
> By the way, could you stand receiving any message in a language you
> cannot understand. that seems to be looking for
> infuriating the non-English speaking users?
On 10/18/2012 10:30 PM, Eric Marsden wrote:
> - the way in which DWG is undertaking its monitoring+blocking, by
> sending aggressive messages to contributors in a language
which they
> can be presumed not to understand
<sarcasm on>
So a requirement for the membership of the DWG should be that you
are a
polyglot. Of course all messages about issues in country X should be
send in the official language and those of all known minority
languages
of the country.
<sarcasm off>
I think it is more reasonable to assume that any contributor to a
multinational open project like openstreetmap knows how to use
<http://translate.google.com> or any other such service.
The continued use of the argument "the message was not in French" is
just silly. You don't have to like that the lingua franca of the
internet age is English, but if you want to be heard in projects like
OSM, you better accept it.
---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus
P.S. No, English is not my native language.
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
