One last observation: Austria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Poland and Slovakia all use a similar system where highway=trunk is "motorway-like", with trunk either implying motorroad status, or being a prerequisite for it.
On 24 February 2018 at 11:08, Matej Lieskovský <lieskovsky.ma...@gmail.com> wrote: > 1) > Trunk in Czechia is "motorway-like". > Feel free to document local conventions here: https://wiki. > openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_classes > Also, see this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag: > highway%3Dtrunk#International_equivalence > > 2) > Highway classification is not really a measurable thing. I'd compare it to > how admin_level works. There is some equivalence, but everyone understands > that admin_level=4 means something slightly different in Czechia and in the > US. > > I'd be very careful about global definitions as we might easily end up > with entire countries without even a highway=primary. I mean, how can > Brazil have unpaved trunk roads? Does Iceland get to keep its trunk road > when it has only one city of more than 35000 inhabitants? Do we get to keep > trunk roads when there are several cities in China with more people than > the entire Czech Republic? By similar logic the outer border of Czech > Republic should be approximately admin_level=4 (to match US states) and > trust me that EU integration is not yet at the point where that would be > acceptable. :) > > Let's get the wiki filled in, we might be wiser afterwards. > > @djakk: Thanks for making the discussion a little more organized. > > On 24 February 2018 at 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate : >> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on >> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the importance >> ? >> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition all >> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are >> country-dependant are not that common, aren’t they ?) >> >> djakk >> >> >> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský < >> lieskovsky.ma...@gmail.com> a écrit : >> >>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend >>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more >>> detailed map. >>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the state >>> on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a primary >>> due to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to motorway >>> standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of roads, our >>> local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from Pilsen to >>> České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the information that >>> there is a section that was built as a motorway link to Písek. I can >>> already tell that the road is important because it links Pilsen and České >>> Budějovice (by looking at the map), but I also want to know that it was >>> built as a primary road and not as a trunk - that means that I'm going to >>> expect more single-level junctions and only two lanes for most of the way. >>> >>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but >>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. Touching >>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will >>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia. >>> >>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other data. >>> I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries where >>> road classification is well-defined. >>> >>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do. >>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see what we >>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads will >>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening you, but >>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with some >>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system >>> "because it will look nicer". >>> >>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border ^^ >>>> >>>> djakk >>>> >>>> >>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jb...@mailoo.org> a écrit : >>>> >>>>> There is something I don't get. >>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more « >>>>> discontinuity »? >>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a different >>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on trunks. I >>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this >>>>> rendering for decades. >>>>> JB. >>>>> >>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit : >>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I found >>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have time >>>>> to >>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind). >>>>> > >>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue, >>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: secondary=yellow). >>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is the >>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very >>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite obvious >>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected, the >>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when >>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for example, >>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through route >>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova. >>>>> > >>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View. >>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered >>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the total >>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking them >>>>> > anyway. >>>>> > >>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg >>>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > talk mailing list >>>>> > talk@openstreetmap.org >>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> talk mailing list >>>>> talk@openstreetmap.org >>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> talk mailing list >>>> talk@openstreetmap.org >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>>> >>>> >>> > On 24 February 2018 at 10:39, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Matej, you don’t have to answer quickly, you can answer one time per week >> if you prefer, the strong arguments will still weight well :) >> >> djakk >> >> >> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> a >> écrit : >> >>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate : >>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on >>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the importance >>> ? >>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition all >>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are >>> country-dependant are not that common, aren’t they ?) >>> >>> djakk >>> >>> >>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský < >>> lieskovsky.ma...@gmail.com> a écrit : >>> >>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend >>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more >>>> detailed map. >>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the >>>> state on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a >>>> primary due to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to >>>> motorway standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of >>>> roads, our local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from >>>> Pilsen to České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the >>>> information that there is a section that was built as a motorway link to >>>> Písek. I can already tell that the road is important because it links >>>> Pilsen and České Budějovice (by looking at the map), but I also want to >>>> know that it was built as a primary road and not as a trunk - that means >>>> that I'm going to expect more single-level junctions and only two lanes for >>>> most of the way. >>>> >>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but >>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. Touching >>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will >>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia. >>>> >>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other >>>> data. I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries >>>> where road classification is well-defined. >>>> >>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do. >>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see what we >>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads will >>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening you, but >>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with some >>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system >>>> "because it will look nicer". >>>> >>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border ^^ >>>>> >>>>> djakk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jb...@mailoo.org> a écrit : >>>>> >>>>>> There is something I don't get. >>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more « >>>>>> discontinuity »? >>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a >>>>>> different >>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on trunks. I >>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this >>>>>> rendering for decades. >>>>>> JB. >>>>>> >>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit : >>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I >>>>>> found >>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have time >>>>>> to >>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind). >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue, >>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: secondary=yellow). >>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is the >>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very >>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite >>>>>> obvious >>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected, >>>>>> the >>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when >>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for example, >>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through >>>>>> route >>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View. >>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered >>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the >>>>>> total >>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking them >>>>>> > anyway. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > talk mailing list >>>>>> > talk@openstreetmap.org >>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> talk mailing list >>>>>> talk@openstreetmap.org >>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> talk mailing list >>>>> talk@openstreetmap.org >>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >
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