Yes, we should be able to tag secondary motorway or secondary motorroads. ( https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.8719/2.4496 - https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/48.57211/-2.82279)
djakk Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 13:34, Fernando Trebien <fernando.treb...@gmail.com> a écrit : > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:16 AM, Matej Lieskovský > <lieskovsky.ma...@gmail.com> wrote: > > One last observation: > > Austria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Poland and > Slovakia > > all use a similar system where highway=trunk is "motorway-like", with > trunk > > either implying motorroad status, or being a prerequisite for it. > > In Brazil, the highways that would most closely correspond to the idea > of a motorroad are actually considered inferior because they lack > shoulders and are, thus, less safe for travel. They are usually built > like that to cut costs, not as an ultimately desirable design, so they > tend to be minor, not major routes. > > TagInfo [1] also tells me that there are many motorroads in OSM that > are primary, not trunk. Probably not in the countries you mentioned, > but they seem to exist in the UK and in Norway (where there may even > be some motorroads classified as secondary) [2]. > > [1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/motorroad=yes#combinations > [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorroad > > > On 24 February 2018 at 11:08, Matej Lieskovský < > lieskovsky.ma...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> 1) > >> Trunk in Czechia is "motorway-like". > >> Feel free to document local conventions here: > >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_classes > >> Also, see this: > >> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrunk#International_equivalence > >> > >> 2) > >> Highway classification is not really a measurable thing. I'd compare it > to > >> how admin_level works. There is some equivalence, but everyone > understands > >> that admin_level=4 means something slightly different in Czechia and in > the > >> US. > >> > >> I'd be very careful about global definitions as we might easily end up > >> with entire countries without even a highway=primary. I mean, how can > Brazil > >> have unpaved trunk roads? Does Iceland get to keep its trunk road when > it > >> has only one city of more than 35000 inhabitants? Do we get to keep > trunk > >> roads when there are several cities in China with more people than the > >> entire Czech Republic? By similar logic the outer border of Czech > Republic > >> should be approximately admin_level=4 (to match US states) and trust me > that > >> EU integration is not yet at the point where that would be acceptable. > :) > >> > >> Let's get the wiki filled in, we might be wiser afterwards. > >> > >> @djakk: Thanks for making the discussion a little more organized. > >> > >> On 24 February 2018 at 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate : > >>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on > >>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the > importance > >>> ? > >>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition > all > >>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are > country-dependant > >>> are not that common, aren’t they ?) > >>> > >>> djakk > >>> > >>> > >>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský > >>> <lieskovsky.ma...@gmail.com> a écrit : > >>>> > >>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend > >>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more > detailed > >>>> map. > >>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the > state > >>>> on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a > primary due > >>>> to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to motorway > >>>> standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of > roads, our > >>>> local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from Pilsen > to > >>>> České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the information > that > >>>> there is a section that was built as a motorway link to Písek. I can > already > >>>> tell that the road is important because it links Pilsen and České > Budějovice > >>>> (by looking at the map), but I also want to know that it was built as > a > >>>> primary road and not as a trunk - that means that I'm going to expect > more > >>>> single-level junctions and only two lanes for most of the way. > >>>> > >>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but > >>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. > Touching > >>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will > >>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia. > >>>> > >>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other > data. > >>>> I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries > where > >>>> road classification is well-defined. > >>>> > >>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do. > >>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see > what we > >>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads > will > >>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening > you, but > >>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with > some > >>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system > >>>> "because it will look nicer". > >>>> > >>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border > ^^ > >>>>> > >>>>> djakk > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jb...@mailoo.org> a écrit : > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There is something I don't get. > >>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more « > >>>>>> discontinuity »? > >>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a > >>>>>> different > >>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on > trunks. I > >>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this > >>>>>> rendering for decades. > >>>>>> JB. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit : > >>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I > >>>>>> > found > >>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have > time > >>>>>> > to > >>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind). > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue, > >>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: > secondary=yellow). > >>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is > the > >>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very > >>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite > >>>>>> > obvious > >>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected, > >>>>>> > the > >>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when > >>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for > example, > >>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through > >>>>>> > route > >>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova. > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View. > >>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered > >>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the > >>>>>> > total > >>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking > them > >>>>>> > anyway. > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> > talk mailing list > >>>>>> > talk@openstreetmap.org > >>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> talk mailing list > >>>>>> talk@openstreetmap.org > >>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> talk mailing list > >>>>> talk@openstreetmap.org > >>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > >> On 24 February 2018 at 10:39, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Matej, you don’t have to answer quickly, you can answer one time per > week > >>> if you prefer, the strong arguments will still weight well :) > >>> > >>> djakk > >>> > >>> > >>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> a > >>> écrit : > >>>> > >>>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate : > >>>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on > >>>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the > importance > >>>> ? > >>>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition > all > >>>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are > country-dependant > >>>> are not that common, aren’t they ?) > >>>> > >>>> djakk > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský > >>>> <lieskovsky.ma...@gmail.com> a écrit : > >>>>> > >>>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd > recommend > >>>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more > detailed > >>>>> map. > >>>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the > >>>>> state on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of > a > >>>>> primary due to the fact that it is a section of future motorway > built to > >>>>> motorway standard. While your system heavily preferences > "importance" of > >>>>> roads, our local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road > from > >>>>> Pilsen to České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the > >>>>> information that there is a section that was built as a motorway > link to > >>>>> Písek. I can already tell that the road is important because it > links Pilsen > >>>>> and České Budějovice (by looking at the map), but I also want to > know that > >>>>> it was built as a primary road and not as a trunk - that means that > I'm > >>>>> going to expect more single-level junctions and only two lanes for > most of > >>>>> the way. > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but > >>>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. > Touching > >>>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will > >>>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia. > >>>>> > >>>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other > >>>>> data. I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in > countries > >>>>> where road classification is well-defined. > >>>>> > >>>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to > do. > >>>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see > what we > >>>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads > will > >>>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening > you, but > >>>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing > with some > >>>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system > >>>>> "because it will look nicer". > >>>>> > >>>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.dj...@gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border > >>>>>> ^^ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> djakk > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jb...@mailoo.org> a écrit : > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> There is something I don't get. > >>>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more « > >>>>>>> discontinuity »? > >>>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a > >>>>>>> different > >>>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on > trunks. > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this > >>>>>>> rendering for decades. > >>>>>>> JB. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit : > >>>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I > >>>>>>> > found > >>>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have > time > >>>>>>> > to > >>>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind). > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue, > >>>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: > secondary=yellow). > >>>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is > the > >>>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very > >>>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite > >>>>>>> > obvious > >>>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected, > >>>>>>> > the > >>>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when > >>>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for > >>>>>>> > example, > >>>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through > >>>>>>> > route > >>>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street > View. > >>>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered > >>>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the > >>>>>>> > total > >>>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking > them > >>>>>>> > anyway. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> > talk mailing list > >>>>>>> > talk@openstreetmap.org > >>>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> talk mailing list > >>>>>>> talk@openstreetmap.org > >>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> talk mailing list > >>>>>> talk@openstreetmap.org > >>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > talk mailing list > > talk@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > > > > > -- > Fernando Trebien > +55 (51) 9962-5409 > > "Nullius in verba." >
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