Rod and Charles (ONLY), At the Jan 10th meeting we will propose that restricted access free-loaders must create a user account to download the free old copies. Copies over one year old will be made free.
Other restricted access free-loaders can apply for a scholarship if they would like to receive the most up-to-date digital copies for free- the scholarship will be a TSA expense. They must have been underground for at least 5 hours in the past year though. Underground being, in a cave, where it is dark. Its more reasonable than the original idea to require you be an NSS member or have involvement w/ a grotto or cave organization to be able to create a free user account. At the Jan 10th meeting! On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Charles, > > Your message below really misses the the point, and your personal attacks > are totally unwarranted. Of course, we all run some risk that our email > addresses will somehow get to spammers whenever we send them to anyone. > Whenever you or I or anyone else posts a message to Texascavers we > understand that our email addresses will be visible to others on the list, > and we choose to do that. Harvesting email addresses one at a time from > postings to this list as you suggested would be possible, of course, but it > would be a slow and inconvenient way to collect a large list for spam, and I > don't think either of us is seriously worried about that. > > The primary hazard is not that anyone in TSA or other caving organizations > will deliberately pass information to spammers, but rather that some people > downloading information with good intentions will inadvertently store it > where spyware or other malware on an infected computer can search the > downloaded files for email addresses, phone numbers, or other information > that writers of the malware wish to harvest. This is something that easily > can happen, and when it does, the person making information available to the > malware might be totally unaware of what is going on. When people download > individual email messages or other data items containing only a few email > addresses or other sensitive items, then only those few items are vulnerable > to harvesting by malware in any one incident. When people download an entire > mailing list, however, then just one incident on one inadvertently infected > computer can result in harvesting of the entire list. When many people > download the list to many different computers, the risk to everyone on the > list increases accordingly. > > So far as I know, the subscribers to Texascavers are not allowed to > download that entire email address list, and I trust that Texascavers will > continue to be managed in this responsible manner, especially since I > haven't noticed any demand to do otherwise. The discussions I've heard and > read about the TSA's online data resources, however, create much more > uncertainty about how they will be managed. This is why it is important to > have serious discussions of the issues beforehand to prevent problems, > especially when some of them could be prevented so easily with a few minor > policy decisions. > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org> > >Sent: Dec 15, 2009 10:48 AM > >To: Rod Goke <rod.g...@ieee.org> > >Cc: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>, John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>, > Mark Alman <mark.al...@l-3com.com>, TexasCavers < > texascavers@texascavers.com> > >Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? > > > >Rod, your paranoia is unwarranted here, only by the fact that over 360 > >people have your email address and each others. Anyone of them could > >harvest most of the emails after a bit of time by keeping track of who > >posted an email to this list. > > > >Do you completely trust every one of these 360 people? The odds that > >one of them would sell out is far greater than one of the "TSA" > >people, who are duly elected by some of these people. > > > >If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section, it > >will be available on the front page. > > > >Blaming the TSA for something that has never happened is just bad > >press, and you should know better, as a member of the TSA. > > > >Charles > > > >On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my TSA > membership ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, think that > Mark has been doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the > dedicated work that he and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor do I > blame TSA for the small amount of spam that occasionally slips through the > filters into my email account. (How could I blame TSA for that when they > don't even have my email address? ;-) ) > >> > >> I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to handle our > email addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA already > has placed an online listing of its electronically registered members on its > password protected website. Then look at Gill's recent proposal to make > online access to the Texas Caver free for nonmembers. Neither of these > things necessarily involves an irresponsible release of TSA members' email > addresses when considered separately (although I still would rather not have > my email address on even a members-only password protected online list). > When both of these things are considered together, however, along with all > the other turmoil about TSA digital publication policies, it is easy to > imagine how people might provide their email addresses to TSA assuming one > seemingly responsible privacy policy, only to discover later that TSA has > changed its mind and has made the email address list more widely accessible > than people had expected when they provided their addresses. > >> > >> I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I wanted > people to actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just telling > us "don't worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA simply > would make a commitment to its members that no member's email address will > be included in any online list unless that member explicitly "opts in" for > inclusion in the list. TSA members need to be able to register for website > access without having their email addresses published in an online list. > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >>>From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net> > >>>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM > >>>To: John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> > >>>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com> > >>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? > >>> > >>>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was just > >>>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails. > >>>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from volunteers > who > >>>are very much appreciated. > >>> > >>>Bill > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> > >>>To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> > >>>Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers" > >>><texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org> > >>>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM > >>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? > >>> > >>> > >>>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk mail > >>>> messages per WEEK. > >>>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning the > TSA > >>>> for something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly > seems > >>>> fair or reasonable. > >>>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>> > >>>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Rod, > >>>> My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 to > 3 > >>>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a spam > >>>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me > figure > >>>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot of > >>>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are advertisng > the > >>>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I feel > that > >>>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since you > can > >>>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A lot > of > >>>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but buried > in > >>>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China... > >>>> > >>>> Bill > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@earthlink.net > > > >>>> To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com> > >>>> Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org> > >>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM > >>>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas > Caver > >>>> reminds me of a related issue: > >>>> > >>>> Is it safe to give your email address to TSA? > >>>> > >>>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the > membership > >>>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During this > >>>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along > with > >>>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication in > >>>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my email > >>>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? The > >>>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in paper > form, > >>>> where email addresses and other personal information is not likely to > be > >>>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc. > >>>> > >>>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for > years, > >>>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of > digital > >>>> publication without adequately considering the negative consequences > of > >>>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal I've > heard > >>>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information > >>>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be > cheap > >>>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but it > >>>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to > automated > >>>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. Once > our > >>>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from a > >>>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient way > to > >>>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push > towards > >>>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered digital > >>>> publication of email addresses > >>>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting? > >>>> > >>>> Rod > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >> > >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >
