That will be a great item to bring up at the Jan 10th meeting. On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org>wrote:
> I disagree Ellie, we should put them on the main page, no login > required and no wait period. > > That's my opinion > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:57 PM, ellie :) <ellie.tho...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Rod and Charles (ONLY), > > > > At the Jan 10th meeting we will propose that restricted access > free-loaders > > must create a user account to download the free old copies. Copies over > one > > year old will be made free. > > > > Other restricted access free-loaders can apply for a scholarship if they > > would like to receive the most up-to-date digital copies for free- the > > scholarship will be a TSA expense. They must have been underground for at > > least 5 hours in the past year though. Underground being, in a cave, > where > > it is dark. > > > > Its more reasonable than the original idea to require you be an NSS > member > > or have involvement w/ a grotto or cave organization to be able to create > a > > free user account. > > > > At the Jan 10th meeting! > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> > wrote: > >> > >> Charles, > >> > >> Your message below really misses the the point, and your personal > attacks > >> are totally unwarranted. Of course, we all run some risk that our email > >> addresses will somehow get to spammers whenever we send them to anyone. > >> Whenever you or I or anyone else posts a message to Texascavers we > >> understand that our email addresses will be visible to others on the > list, > >> and we choose to do that. Harvesting email addresses one at a time from > >> postings to this list as you suggested would be possible, of course, but > it > >> would be a slow and inconvenient way to collect a large list for spam, > and I > >> don't think either of us is seriously worried about that. > >> > >> The primary hazard is not that anyone in TSA or other caving > organizations > >> will deliberately pass information to spammers, but rather that some > people > >> downloading information with good intentions will inadvertently store it > >> where spyware or other malware on an infected computer can search the > >> downloaded files for email addresses, phone numbers, or other > information > >> that writers of the malware wish to harvest. This is something that > easily > >> can happen, and when it does, the person making information available to > the > >> malware might be totally unaware of what is going on. When people > download > >> individual email messages or other data items containing only a few > email > >> addresses or other sensitive items, then only those few items are > vulnerable > >> to harvesting by malware in any one incident. When people download an > entire > >> mailing list, however, then just one incident on one inadvertently > infected > >> computer can result in harvesting of the entire list. When many people > >> download the list to many different computers, the risk to everyone on > the > >> list increases accordingly. > >> > >> So far as I know, the subscribers to Texascavers are not allowed to > >> download that entire email address list, and I trust that Texascavers > will > >> continue to be managed in this responsible manner, especially since I > >> haven't noticed any demand to do otherwise. The discussions I've heard > and > >> read about the TSA's online data resources, however, create much more > >> uncertainty about how they will be managed. This is why it is important > to > >> have serious discussions of the issues beforehand to prevent problems, > >> especially when some of them could be prevented so easily with a few > minor > >> policy decisions. > >> > >> Rod > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> >From: Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org> > >> >Sent: Dec 15, 2009 10:48 AM > >> >To: Rod Goke <rod.g...@ieee.org> > >> >Cc: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>, John Brooks > >> > <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>, Mark Alman <mark.al...@l-3com.com>, > TexasCavers > >> > <texascavers@texascavers.com> > >> >Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? > >> > > >> >Rod, your paranoia is unwarranted here, only by the fact that over 360 > >> >people have your email address and each others. Anyone of them could > >> >harvest most of the emails after a bit of time by keeping track of who > >> >posted an email to this list. > >> > > >> >Do you completely trust every one of these 360 people? The odds that > >> >one of them would sell out is far greater than one of the "TSA" > >> >people, who are duly elected by some of these people. > >> > > >> >If the TC goes free, it won't be in the password protected section, it > >> >will be available on the front page. > >> > > >> >Blaming the TSA for something that has never happened is just bad > >> >press, and you should know better, as a member of the TSA. > >> > > >> >Charles > >> > > >> >On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Rod Goke <rod.g...@earthlink.net> > wrote: > >> >> For the record, I like TSA, too, which is why I've maintained my TSA > >> >> membership ever since moving to Texas about 25 years ago. I, too, > think that > >> >> Mark has been doing a great job as editor, and I much appreciate the > >> >> dedicated work that he and other TSA volunteers have been doing. Nor > do I > >> >> blame TSA for the small amount of spam that occasionally slips > through the > >> >> filters into my email account. (How could I blame TSA for that when > they > >> >> don't even have my email address? ;-) ) > >> >> > >> >> I still am not confident, however, that TSA can be trusted to handle > >> >> our email addresses responsibly. Look at Jerry's observation that TSA > >> >> already has placed an online listing of its electronically registered > >> >> members on its password protected website. Then look at Gill's recent > >> >> proposal to make online access to the Texas Caver free for > nonmembers. > >> >> Neither of these things necessarily involves an irresponsible release > of TSA > >> >> members' email addresses when considered separately (although I still > would > >> >> rather not have my email address on even a members-only password > protected > >> >> online list). When both of these things are considered together, > however, > >> >> along with all the other turmoil about TSA digital publication > policies, it > >> >> is easy to imagine how people might provide their email addresses to > TSA > >> >> assuming one seemingly responsible privacy policy, only to discover > later > >> >> that TSA has changed its mind and has made the email address list > more > >> >> widely accessible than people had expected when they provided their > >> >> addresses. > >> >> > >> >> I chose to "throw this stone into the hornets nest," because I wanted > >> >> people to actually start thinking about the issue, instead of just > telling > >> >> us "don't worry, be happy." The problem would be easy to fix if TSA > simply > >> >> would make a commitment to its members that no member's email address > will > >> >> be included in any online list unless that member explicitly "opts > in" for > >> >> inclusion in the list. TSA members need to be able to register for > website > >> >> access without having their email addresses published in an online > list. > >> >> > >> >> Rod > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >>>From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net> > >> >>>Sent: Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM > >> >>>To: John Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> > >> >>>Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com> > >> >>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? > >> >>> > >> >>>For the record Mark, I wasn't blaming nor condeming the TSA, I was > just > >> >>>stating the fact that I get hundreds of thousands of spam emails. > >> >>>Mark, I like the TSA and I think I get my moneys worth from > volunteers > >> >>> who > >> >>>are very much appreciated. > >> >>> > >> >>>Bill > >> >>>----- Original Message ----- > >> >>>From: "John Brooks" <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> > >> >>>To: "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> > >> >>>Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org>; "TexasCavers" > >> >>><texascavers@texascavers.com>; "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org> > >> >>>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:24 AM > >> >>>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>> The TSA has my e mail.....and I get....oh maybe one or two junk > mail > >> >>>> messages per WEEK. > >> >>>> Paranoia runs deep concerning e mail spam. But unjustly condemning > >> >>>> the TSA > >> >>>> for something they are not doing or really at fault for......hardly > >> >>>> seems > >> >>>> fair or reasonable. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Sent from my iPhone > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On Dec 14, 2009, at 6:37 AM, "Bill Bentley" <ca...@caver.net> > wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Rod, > >> >>>> My ca...@caver.net email address gets a spam email message every 2 > to > >> >>>> 3 > >> >>>> seconds... literally thousands per hour... all of it goes into a > spam > >> >>>> folder and good spam sorting software on the email server helps me > >> >>>> figure > >> >>>> what is crap and what is not... End of the day I am deleting a lot > of > >> >>>> spam... If someone were to go after the companies who are > advertisng > >> >>>> the > >> >>>> drugs, diplomas and sex services then it mifght help curb it. I > feel > >> >>>> that > >> >>>> a complete overhaul of how email works wouold be the answer, since > >> >>>> you can > >> >>>> currently send from and have the reply to address be different. A > lot > >> >>>> of > >> >>>> the spam I gets looks as if it is coming to me from me... but > buried > >> >>>> in > >> >>>> the header I find that it comes from Korea or China... > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Bill > >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Goke" > >> >>>> <rod.g...@earthlink.net> > >> >>>> To: "TexasCavers" <texascavers@texascavers.com> > >> >>>> Cc: "Rod Goke" <rod.g...@ieee.org> > >> >>>> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 2:04 AM > >> >>>> Subject: [Texascavers] Can TSA be trusted with email addresses? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> All this talk about electronic vs. paper publication of the Texas > >> >>>> Caver > >> >>>> reminds me of a related issue: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Is it safe to give your email address to TSA? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> For years TSA has been asking for our email addresses on the > >> >>>> membership > >> >>>> renewal forms, and I have been refusing to give them mine. During > >> >>>> this > >> >>>> same period, however, I have been providing my email address (along > >> >>>> with > >> >>>> mailing address and phone numbers) to the UT Grotto for publication > >> >>>> in > >> >>>> their "UT Grotto Phone List". Why is it that I have felt that my > >> >>>> email > >> >>>> address was sufficiently safe with the UT Grotto but not with TSA? > >> >>>> The > >> >>>> answer is that the "UT Grotto Phone List" is published only in > paper > >> >>>> form, > >> >>>> where email addresses and other personal information is not likely > to > >> >>>> be > >> >>>> harvested by spammers, telemarketers, search engines, etc. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I don't have that kind of confidence in TSA, however, because for > >> >>>> years, > >> >>>> I've heard various people within TSA advocating expanded use of > >> >>>> digital > >> >>>> publication without adequately considering the negative > consequences > >> >>>> of > >> >>>> what they are advocating. Most disturbing has been the proposal > I've > >> >>>> heard > >> >>>> from time to time that TSA publish its membership list information > >> >>>> electronically, perhaps by placing it on a web site. This might be > >> >>>> cheap > >> >>>> and convenient for TSA to implement and for TSA members to use, but > >> >>>> it > >> >>>> also could make our personal information much more vulnerable to > >> >>>> automated > >> >>>> harvesting by those who would use it in ways we never intended. > Once > >> >>>> our > >> >>>> email addresses, cell phone numbers, etc. have been harvested from > a > >> >>>> digitally published list, there would be no cheap and convenient > way > >> >>>> to > >> >>>> undo the damage. How can we be confident that the continuing push > >> >>>> towards > >> >>>> digital publication within TSA will not lead to ill considered > >> >>>> digital > >> >>>> publication of email addresses > >> >>>> and other information vulnerable to automated harvesting? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Rod > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >> >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >> >>>For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >> > > > > >
