HC, As someone who's daily job is overwhelmed with tabular data in the form of spreadsheets and relational databases, I believe I know where you are coming from. TiddlyWiki's non-linear philosophy is part of what makes it so great. TiddlyTables <http://tiddlytables.tiddlyspot.com/>was supposed to be more of a "query" tool than a "table builder" but TiddlyWiki's unique data structure lends itself to the best of both worlds. The advantages of non-linear data come in the form of efficient memory utilization and the ability for an element to exist at multiple levels of a hierarchical structure, but at the expense of a more complex structure that is generally more difficult to traverse. Regardless of how data is stored, humans love simple and "readable" information, and further, most seem to be especially comfortable in a spreadsheet format - hence the overuse of excel. There will always be a need to visualize linear "chunks" of non-linear data though. Think of it this way. you could create a TiddlyMap <http://tiddlymap.org/> of your entire wiki with every field represented and edges representing all of their links and, if it doesn't crash your browser, you will likely see a useless spiderweb of unreadable nodes and lines. This is a purely non-linear representation of a non-linear database. On the other hand, you can export an entire wiki to a csv file, a spreadsheet. and likewise the data is practically useless in its raw form, mostly because it is 90% empty cells. Those empty cells are the wasted efficiencies of a non-linear database converted to a linear one. Luckily, TiddlyWiki is unique in that everything is represented in tiddlers which are represented by name:value pairs. So getting back to the "best of both worlds", creating a simple table in TiddlyWiki is a linear "chunk" of a non-linear database, which is an inevitable part of visualizing data. In the plugins you mention, editing a table only creates data in one field at a time therefore the non-linear philosophy is maintained. In my plugin, the expand feature was intended to make the tables less linear to hopefully avoid "spreadsheet overload". The idea is you can set up multiple tables to drill-down or traverse through rather than a bunch of separate tables or tables with vague links between them.
That said, I think you make a good point, and we should always remind ourselves to stay true to the spirit of TiddlyWIki. Certainly TiddlyTables is too complex in its current form to be implemented as a standard feature, but it was a general lack of basic functionality that led me to build it. That is, the need for a "query builder". I found myself using the advanced search filter a lot and became familiar with the filter syntax, but I felt the filter search was missing one thing, columns. I would type in a filter that returned 15 titles and then wanted to know their values for "tags" or "modified". I would often create a quick unstructured table using the list widget but soon started working on a plugin. To answer your proposal, let me share my idea for a simple table/query builder that could/should become part of the core: In advanced search under the filter tab, instead of just one text box, two. One to query a list of tiddler titles (filter format) and another to query fields/indexes (also filter format). If the second box is blank it defaults to a simple list of tiddler titles, if not it returns a table. You could even add a button to turn that query into a tiddler with the table rendered, but that isn't necessarily required. I think it would be a very useful feature and would expand the practicality of the advanced search. I told myself I would keep this short. Sorry, Alan On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 3:23:03 AM UTC-6, HC Haase wrote: > > Lets talk about tables. > > Lately there has been a focus on tables of tiddlers and there fields (not > static wikitext tables) and some great plugins has been developed. Lets > talk about the what, the why and the future of tables in tiddlywiki > > What tables > when we look at tiddler-tabels, i.e. tables that list tiddlers, not > wikitext tables, I find it a bit confusing with the many options. I see > three great plug-ins at the moment. > > - fields2table > > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/TiddlyWiki/fields2table%7Csort:date/tiddlywiki/Pizophc7aFk/Ek0Ho2JHAQAJ>by > > Mat: simple and quick to use, in-table edits. I like this because it is > simple an fast to use and the inline editing is realy useful. The way you > specify what fields to use as columns without editing the tiddler in edit > mode is also nice. > - Tiddlytables > > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/tiddlytable%7Csort:date/tiddlywiki/VFf0ZJW_Noo/Mv22wtg4BAAJ>by > > Alan Aldrich : very extensive, lots of options and nice GUI, beautiful > tables. However for me this is overkill as I only have 5 tables. > - Dynamic > > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/tiddlytable%7Csort:date/tiddlywiki/c4xVcquRsAc/nMOll3cZAgAJ>tables > > as part of Shiraz by Mohammad: this has all the best from tiddlytable > (that > it is derived from), but keeps it more simple. beautiful tables, many > cosmetic customisations, sort by column click (very useful) and it also > has > inline editing. > > > There is a trade of here between easy of use and features. Starting from > fields2tabel it is simple fast and easy to edit, bam here is your table. > Dynamic table a bit more to understand a bit of a barrier to get going but > much more beautiful and realy handy with column sorting. Tiddlytable has, > for my usecase way to much going on and to much learning, but looks realy > powerful so if I had a greater need for tables this might be good. > > Why tables > > For some tiddlers like my index of books to read, I use a handful of > fields in them. For those kind of tiddlers, tables are very handy to sort > by different criteria (year, genre etc.) and it gives a good overview. > > However I am not sure if it breaks with the TW-philosophy of the tiddler > as the smallest unit and tags as the main organiser. Like TW has changed > the way I think/interact with knowledge, I think these tables have done it > too. when using tables I have a mindset of spreadsheets/DB. I tend to seek > to find and overview, to fill missing fields, where the "wiki mindset" > gives me a mindset of seeking connections and mental maps. I am not saying > tables a bad but I think they change the room for doing an situating > knowledge. Or is it just reinventing spreadsheets? that's worth pondering > on. > > Future use and development > > The main organising mechanism in TW is filtered list of different kinds > (list-link, toc, tags). Tables is in essence also just a filtered list that > is showing more data. You can (and I have in the past) use the list macro, > to make a list showing many fields of its entries. As an example I have a > list of users in my company that shows there name, what special software > they have and version no. What these tables plugin do different, is making > it *easier to make "list with fields* showing", *fast to sort* ( and > shift) by different criteria, and *fast to edit field values* in bulk. > This is very useful. > > So this is my proposal. > Imaging that you make a standard TW list, and at the top left corner (or > elsewhere) there is a small toggle button. table view on/of. with this you > get a table view of your list with all fields present for the filtered > tiddlers. You can do some edits and turn list view back on, or you can > leave the table view on if it is more appropriate for what you are doing. > Or you could use it to get an overview, make a quick sort by the relevant > field and turn back to list again. > > I think this could be a good way to hop between wiki mindset and database > mindset (as commented above) and give the flexibility to use the best of > two worlds. > > what do you think. would it be something worth perusing? > > unfortunately I would not be the right person to implement his idea. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/ac6c4c97-ac8a-4ad3-9c74-e6365e0b4287%40googlegroups.com.
